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Thread: Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Just a reminder for people who are not familiar with Germany. There are 4 clusters in Germany which are different from one another.

    Cluster ''1'' is Western German the most widespread cluster. It stretches all over Central-Northern Germany into Alsace-Lorraine , Bavaria, Switzerland, Western Austria and Northeastern Italy. It totally correlates with a linguistic reality which is the High German language that is spread in and around.
    Its the southern most shifted cluster and typically occupies Halsttat and La Tene territories.

    Cluster ''2'' is Eastern German. This cluster can score as high as 50% Slavic. It stretches from NE Holstein down to Saxony Anhalt and Czechia. Those regions were Slavic (Wendic/Sorb) and conquered by Germans and Dutch people in the Middle Age.

    Cluster ''3'' is NW Germany. It is the closest to Dutch populations.

    Cluster ''4'' is Schleswig-Holstein. It is the most Scandinavian shifted cluster and was for a long time a part of the kingdom of Denmark. The region is home to Germanized Danes, Low Saxons and a group of northern Frisians.
    Northwest Germany what parts/regions it contains?Low Saxony and North Rhine-Westphalia?Also can you be more specific about Clushter '3' Autosomal's DNA.They are more Bell Beaker or Hallstatt La Tene when it comes to their southernes compared to Clushter '4' witch is obviously more North Sea Germanic/Nordic like.Are Dutch overall more Bell Beaker or Halsttat and La Tene plus North Sea Germanic?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The shift from Hallstatt to La Tene is highly important, because it marks the transition from a caste like elite and princely culture, to a more popular and broader free warrior culture. Both the aristocratic and the free warrior culture got influenced by Greek ideas. You can see the depictions of the core Hallstatt elite, in long, tunic like robes, their heads and faces were completely shaven, they wore strange hats, which resemble Greek role models, they drink, play and fight like Greeks, make "symposia"-like meetings. In the art, they copy Greek styles and use concrete depictions. Their women carry goods in the "Mediterranean" fashion on the head in large pottery and so on. Its totally different from the very Eastern group, the steppe or any "classical Barbarians" before or later. Its like they copied Greeks and Etruscans in a rather crude and sometimes clumsy, sometimes in a very own, stylish and elaborated way.
    And this largely ends with La Tene, when suddenly everything shifts towards a more "Scythian" style. They wear longer hair, beards (especially moustaches), almost exclusively trousers in the Scythian way, no chariots any more, but only horse riding (started in Hallstatt latest of course, but then it became final), the culture became more broadly based, less elitist, and the art becomes abstract, with the famous animal style, which reaches Germanics and survives among those up into Medieval and Viking times.

    Politically and socially there was between Hallstatt and La Tene a revolution, probably even with some uprisings and murdered elites, but there was also after the initial Iron Age influences a second steppe impact, this time coming clearly from Scythians (Cimmerians were no more anyway and Daco-Thracians no longer that infuential, but could have been the transmitters). The Greek role models were still there, but I'd say in many ways it was an emancipation from the old world and teachers. How direct the Scythian influence was is another interesting question.
    I think this all is of importance to dating/locating proto-Celtic. Reconstructed proto-Celtic lacks hardly any clearcut foreign loanwords. So, it seems to be older than the contacts seen in even the Hallstatt C and D era. It seems totally impossible that a culture so heavily in thrawl and awe at other cultures like Greeks, Etruscans and later more eastern influences would have no loanwords. As these contacts clearly did happen then it can only be concluded that Proto-Celtic emerged at a time and/or geography that precluded such loans getting into the proto-Celtic lexicon. I suspect personally it is a bit of both time and geography. It seems very likely to me that proto-Celtic cannot post-date the urnfield era and you could possibly argue that even that was a little too connected over wide areas to easily fit into the isolate type vocab of proto-Celtic and that urnfield in the west was more of a cultural thing that existing pre-urnfield proto-Celtic speakers absorbed.

    There is also something about the structure of Celtic society that appears to have promoted linguistic conservatism - compare the relatively minor changes from Ogham stones in 400AD to proto-Celtic. I suspect the Celts were a peculiarly wordy type culture where eloquence and showing status by some sort of high conservative dialect may have been important and the large learned/sacred/legal class noted in both classical and later insular literature was heavily invested in. The spoken word was particularly important as they had the striking (usual?) combination of apparently being very supportive of the oral learned classes but were largely illiterate. My guess is the Celtic world featured hyper conservative high register speech among the noble and learned class and a low register speech among the commoners. That also is the explanation IMO as to why Ogham stones in primitive Irish c. 5th century AD look like they were written 600 years before they were exist very close in time to when the very different post-Roman Irish and British emerge into view. Probably both high and low registers were both spoken for centuries and the appearance of a sudden shift is a total illusion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I'm not even sure all of these Hallstatt elites were actual Celts, I'm absolutely sure about La Tene for the most part, probably with small regional and transitional exceptions, but not before. However, there are plenty of such images especially in the situla-art. You see shaved head and faces, long tunics, flutes and drinking rituals in the Greek fashion:




    I'm pretty sure the Hallstatt princes had some Greeks, Etruscans and others from the South on their courts, in the "Fürstensitz", regardless of what they were themselves (early Celts, mixed, foreign elite).

    The Vace situla is particularly interesting and beautiful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Va%C4%8De_Situla

    Shaved heads and faces, long tunics, Greek hats:


    Chariot races in the Greek and Eastern fashion (not suitable for the Alpine zone for the most part other than representation):


    Balkan-Greek style rider:


    Hoplite style warriors:


    They even called Greek architects to Germany, where they built for the wet and cold climate unsuitable mud brick constructions. They just wanted to bring in the whole package and follow their Southern role models.

    Everything like a spitting image of Greek and Etruscan patterns. This changes fundamentally with the La Tene revolution, which brought a very different culture, worldview, religion - everything. At least for some regions surely ethnic change as well, but details need to be investigated by ancient DNA. Doesn't have to mean big, in many cases, especially in the West, only very modest shifts and nuances. I would check primarily for yDNA changes in the centres. The periphery won't be affected as much anyway, because this is more about elite shifts rather than complete folk replacements, unlike in the Neolithic and EBA.

    La Tene can't be underestimated, because even for Germanics the very late adoption of La Tene ideas and organisation led to the Germanic higher culture and spread. This is highly important, it was, like the Mediterranean way of a life, a complete package on a high cultural level. Before Germanics adopted it, they were "backward tribal people", after they adopted it, they began to replace Celts, Romans, Sarmatians and others in a row. This is no coincidence, this gave them the boost they needed, as it helped the Celts to expand before, in their high phase, before they lost to the Romans.

    Disclaimer: Not all of these images are from the Western Hallstatt, more Celtic shifted sphere, so could represent Illyrians in particular. But largely the same pattern can be observed elsewhere in the core Hallstatt sphere.
    Great evidence from them, one has nothing to complain about, as we have already discussed the Hallstatt Culture was a great cultural horizon, but one could still not see Hallstatt culture with its various influences as a preliminary stage of the Celts and in the La Téne phase it was its own identity on. There is also a great new book about the Celts in German by Eva-Maria Schnurr
    The Celts: Secrets of a Sunken Culture - A SPIEGEL book, I'll read it soon, but now I have another interesting book with 500 pages.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I'm not even sure all of these Hallstatt elites were actual Celts, I'm absolutely sure about La Tene for the most part, probably with small regional and transitional exceptions, but not before. However, there are plenty of such images especially in the situla-art. You see shaved head and faces, long tunics, flutes and drinking rituals in the Greek fashion:




    I'm pretty sure the Hallstatt princes had some Greeks, Etruscans and others from the South on their courts, in the "Fürstensitz", regardless of what they were themselves (early Celts, mixed, foreign elite).

    The Vace situla is particularly interesting and beautiful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Va%C4%8De_Situla

    Shaved heads and faces, long tunics, Greek hats:


    Chariot races in the Greek and Eastern fashion (not suitable for the Alpine zone for the most part other than representation):


    Balkan-Greek style rider:


    Hoplite style warriors:


    They even called Greek architects to Germany, where they built for the wet and cold climate unsuitable mud brick constructions. They just wanted to bring in the whole package and follow their Southern role models.

    Everything like a spitting image of Greek and Etruscan patterns. This changes fundamentally with the La Tene revolution, which brought a very different culture, worldview, religion - everything. At least for some regions surely ethnic change as well, but details need to be investigated by ancient DNA. Doesn't have to mean big, in many cases, especially in the West, only very modest shifts and nuances. I would check primarily for yDNA changes in the centres. The periphery won't be affected as much anyway, because this is more about elite shifts rather than complete folk replacements, unlike in the Neolithic and EBA.

    La Tene can't be underestimated, because even for Germanics the very late adoption of La Tene ideas and organisation led to the Germanic higher culture and spread. This is highly important, it was, like the Mediterranean way of a life, a complete package on a high cultural level. Before Germanics adopted it, they were "backward tribal people", after they adopted it, they began to replace Celts, Romans, Sarmatians and others in a row. This is no coincidence, this gave them the boost they needed, as it helped the Celts to expand before, in their high phase, before they lost to the Romans.

    Disclaimer: Not all of these images are from the Western Hallstatt, more Celtic shifted sphere, so could represent Illyrians in particular. But largely the same pattern can be observed elsewhere in the core Hallstatt sphere.
    I am not even 100% sure the western Hallstatt C chiefdoms were Celts. The is a paper I read not so long ago that suggested there was a higher degree of borrowing pre-iron age times between Italic and Germanic than Celtic and Germanic or Celtic and Italic. Its kind of suggestive that the Italics could directly reach the Germanics and vice versa without intervening Celtic middlemen back before the Iron Age. The paper suggested that Celtic-Germanic links look Iron Age while Italic-Germanic links look bronze age. That appears to suggest that at least some Italics were north of the Alps and capable of contact with the future Germanic area without Celts blocking the path.

    Part of me wonders if western Hallstatt was really Celtic. La Tene clearly was. Was that because La Tene core fell within (grew out of a subset of) a larger proto-Celtic zone that was a bit further north in north-central France, the Rhineland - lower west bank Rhine etc? I think there is a case for this. It would make sense of three things. Firstly its slightly off the beaten track of the busiest and most cosmopolitan zone of the Hallstatt era and that matches the lack of exotic borrowings in Proto-Celtic that you would expect if the western Hallstatt heartland chiefdoms nearer the Alps were some sort of font of the Celtic. Secondly, there is a lack of contact with Italics in the proto-Celtic lexicon, something that is very hard to understand if the west Hallstatt chiefs had anything to do with the genesis of the Celtic speakers. Thirdly, it is very clear that proto-Celtic and Germanic uniquely share a lot of important vocab relating to power, war, ritual etc. Part of this vocab is also apparently from a non-IE substrate. So, they shared the same substrate. This was almost entirely not shared with Italic. So, the genesis of Celtic and its early zone of use seems to me to have almost certainly been further north that the western Hallstatt chiefdoms and certainly not in the busy area of primary contact with Greeks, Italics, Etruscans etc.

    I would suggest proto-Celtic existed somewhere peripheral the busy exotic networking area of the north Alpine zone in the late bronze age. Probably Rhineland, western Lower countries and part of northern and east-central France. La Tene later became closely associated with this because La Tene culture arose in part of the proto-Celtic area I am suggesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Just a reminder for people who are not familiar with Germany. There are 4 clusters in Germany which are different from one another.

    Cluster ''1'' is Western German the most widespread cluster. It stretches all over Central-Northern Germany into Alsace-Lorraine , Bavaria, Switzerland, Western Austria and Northeastern Italy. It totally correlates with a linguistic reality which is the High German language that is spread in and around.
    Its the southern most shifted cluster and typically occupies Halsttat and La Tene territories.

    Cluster ''2'' is Eastern German. This cluster can score as high as 50% Slavic. It stretches from NE Holstein down to Saxony Anhalt and Czechia. Those regions were Slavic (Wendic/Sorb) and conquered by Germans and Dutch people in the Middle Age.

    Cluster ''3'' is NW Germany. It is the closest to Dutch populations.

    Cluster ''4'' is Schleswig-Holstein. It is the most Scandinavian shifted cluster and was for a long time a part of the kingdom of Denmark. The region is home to Germanized Danes, Low Saxons and a group of northern Frisians.
    The remarks of mister Ola were right!

    I guess you mess up cluster 3 and 4 you messed up a little bit. My good guess is that they are one. There is lot of continuity between NW Germany (=Lower Saxony, Bremen, Hamburg, Schleswig Holstein) and North Dutch (especially Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe). This was already in LNBA (and earlier with the funnelbeakers) the case. Later on in migration time the Chauken/ Saxons went to the North Dutch area, and a few centuries later the West-Frisians went to the coast of Schleswig, and became the so called North Frisians.

    May be Westfalen has some resemblance with Overijssel/Gelderland. I guess that would be the better cluster 3 and 4!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I'm not even sure all of these Hallstatt elites were actual Celts, I'm absolutely sure about La Tene for the most part, probably with small regional and transitional exceptions, but not before. However, there are plenty of such images especially in the situla-art. You see shaved head and faces, long tunics, flutes and drinking rituals in the Greek fashion:




    I'm pretty sure the Hallstatt princes had some Greeks, Etruscans and others from the South on their courts, in the "Fürstensitz", regardless of what they were themselves (early Celts, mixed, foreign elite).

    The Vace situla is particularly interesting and beautiful: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Va%C4%8De_Situla

    Shaved heads and faces, long tunics, Greek hats:


    Chariot races in the Greek and Eastern fashion (not suitable for the Alpine zone for the most part other than representation):


    Balkan-Greek style rider:


    Hoplite style warriors:


    They even called Greek architects to Germany, where they built for the wet and cold climate unsuitable mud brick constructions. They just wanted to bring in the whole package and follow their Southern role models.

    Everything like a spitting image of Greek and Etruscan patterns. This changes fundamentally with the La Tene revolution, which brought a very different culture, worldview, religion - everything. At least for some regions surely ethnic change as well, but details need to be investigated by ancient DNA. Doesn't have to mean big, in many cases, especially in the West, only very modest shifts and nuances. I would check primarily for yDNA changes in the centres. The periphery won't be affected as much anyway, because this is more about elite shifts rather than complete folk replacements, unlike in the Neolithic and EBA.

    La Tene can't be underestimated, because even for Germanics the very late adoption of La Tene ideas and organisation led to the Germanic higher culture and spread. This is highly important, it was, like the Mediterranean way of a life, a complete package on a high cultural level. Before Germanics adopted it, they were "backward tribal people", after they adopted it, they began to replace Celts, Romans, Sarmatians and others in a row. This is no coincidence, this gave them the boost they needed, as it helped the Celts to expand before, in their high phase, before they lost to the Romans.

    Disclaimer: Not all of these images are from the Western Hallstatt, more Celtic shifted sphere, so could represent Illyrians in particular. But largely the same pattern can be observed elsewhere in the core Hallstatt sphere.
    The Celtic word for trousers, soap and some variant of spear are the only known borrowings from Germanic. Its strange though as trousers were not used in the likely Germanic zone in the bronze age (bog bodies). And on top of that, archaeology suggests a borrowing from the east of trousers not from Germanic zone. Perhaps the Germanic word for trousers later spread far and wide as a trading word if they became associated with excellent trousers (and soap) for a period LOL. I'd dont think the Celtic word for trousers is really proto-Celtic as its not known in Gaelic. In Gaelic the word used for trousers is thought to be a Viking era borrowing. It may be that the fashion for trousers spread after the proto-Celtic dispersal and therefore isnt a true proto-Celtic word. That makes sense too as trousers seem a La Tene era adoption by the Celts not a Hallstatt era one from the east. It would seem that the Germanics adopted them slightly before the Celts. Its just one of several strands of evidence that suggests to me that proto-Celtic is older than both both La Tene and Hallstatt and arose significantly further north than the north Alpine zone and closer to the Germanics than many suggest.

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    relooking the 'roman paper' for a pos. "Skytho-Cimmerian" influx (early IA 9th-7th c. BC/BCE as arch. proposed)



    individually they model to ~25-37 Yamnaya(Samara) S16 but the Italic_IA are best modeled S15 with something newer from the steppes (+ prev. CA(xSteppe(S11) instead of an 'old-steppe' source like Bell-Beaker or something Bell-Beaker derived; in conjunction with the Moldova paper and with east-hallstatt DA112 a new wave (e.1st mil. BC/BCE) from the steppes could have occurred in the exact manner as been proposed by some archaeologists

    in italy the IA networks def. derive from a new impulse and not from a BA continuity with arch. connections to something "Skytho-Cimmerian" as likewise seen in contemporary pannonian-basin and the east-hallstatt; the new artistic style is likewise very scythian-like* best expressed by the metallurgical depictions; but above all this has the most important implication for linguistics as this would be the source of the IE 'Italic' group, its close proximity to the 'Celtic' group could be that it likewise derives from that "Scytho-Cimmerian" influx(or just random in that its older Bell-Beaker) eitherway it is not connected or dependent on eachother; and best explained by linguists that favor model (b) in that there is a common root but it is PIE itself



    the Greeks knew the 'Cimmerians' from raiding Anatolia and down the Caucasus to Nineveh and when they reached the south of italy they claimed that Cimmerians were dwelling in caves there; maybe more to it afterall and maybe that also explains R437 best modeled S17 with 53.3 Armenia_LBA
    * the 'stag and hound' is a motif, in such style, found spec. in the socalled 'Thraco-Cimmerian' complex aswell as east-hallstatt and the italic (atestine/villanova) zones
    Last edited by alexfritz; 10-29-2020 at 02:41 PM.
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    The remarks of mister Ola were right!

    I guess you mess up cluster 3 and 4 you messed up a little bit. My good guess is that they are one. There is lot of continuity between NW Germany (=Lower Saxony, Bremen, Hamburg, Schleswig Holstein) and North Dutch (especially Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe). This was already in LNBA (and earlier with the funnelbeakers) the case. Later on in migration time the Chauken/ Saxons went to the North Dutch area, and a few centuries later the West-Frisians went to the coast of Schleswig, and became the so called North Frisians.

    May be Westfalen has some resemblance with Overijssel/Gelderland. I guess that would be the better cluster 3 and 4!
    So we can say that the Low German dialect group is reflected genetically as a closer relationship to Dutch and Danish?
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    I am not even 100% sure the western Hallstatt C chiefdoms were Celts. The is a paper I read not so long ago that suggested there was a higher degree of borrowing pre-iron age times between Italic and Germanic than Celtic and Germanic or Celtic and Italic. Its kind of suggestive that the Italics could directly reach the Germanics and vice versa without intervening Celtic middlemen back before the Iron Age. The paper suggested that Celtic-Germanic links look Iron Age while Italic-Germanic links look bronze age. That appears to suggest that at least some Italics were north of the Alps and capable of contact with the future Germanic area without Celts blocking the path.

    Part of me wonders if western Hallstatt was really Celtic. La Tene clearly was. Was that because La Tene core fell within (grew out of a subset of) a larger proto-Celtic zone that was a bit further north in north-central France, the Rhineland - lower west bank Rhine etc? I think there is a case for this. It would make sense of three things. Firstly its slightly off the beaten track of the busiest and most cosmopolitan zone of the Hallstatt era and that matches the lack of exotic borrowings in Proto-Celtic that you would expect if the western Hallstatt heartland chiefdoms nearer the Alps were some sort of font of the Celtic. Secondly, there is a lack of contact with Italics in the proto-Celtic lexicon, something that is very hard to understand if the west Hallstatt chiefs had anything to do with the genesis of the Celtic speakers. Thirdly, it is very clear that proto-Celtic and Germanic uniquely share a lot of important vocab relating to power, war, ritual etc. Part of this vocab is also apparently from a non-IE substrate. So, they shared the same substrate. This was almost entirely not shared with Italic. So, the genesis of Celtic and its early zone of use seems to me to have almost certainly been further north that the western Hallstatt chiefdoms and certainly not in the busy area of primary contact with Greeks, Italics, Etruscans etc.

    I would suggest proto-Celtic existed somewhere peripheral the busy exotic networking area of the north Alpine zone in the late bronze age. Probably Rhineland, western Lower countries and part of northern and east-central France. La Tene later became closely associated with this because La Tene culture arose in part of the proto-Celtic area I am suggesting.
    This is probably easy to explain. I came recently to the conclusion that no culture was as important for the spread of the known Indo-European tongues as the Urnfield horizon. The Urnfield horizon North of the Alps included at least Celtic, Italic, Illyrian and Thracian, it influenced Greek (Dorian), Proto-Germanic and Proto-Slavs. With the new Pannonian data, this became even more clear to me. In most of Europe there is a pre- and post-Urnfield horizon and between those two happened a lot. The LBA-EIA transition seems to be still the most underestimated major shift in European (and beyond) genetics, linguistics and culture. The main reason for this is, that a broadly steppe influenced zone was established much before, but the later, the historical people and haplogroup distributions were not to the same degree.

    In this context I'd say your suggestion makes absolute sense, because yes, Italics were close to Germanics, probably directly South of them and the Celts directly to the West, in the pre-Urnfield time. The Italics were pushed and expanded South, same did the Illyrians and the Thracians. Celts, Germanics and unknown people, probably even related to Balto-Slavs, took their positions. In Eastern Central and South Eastern Europe, this shift was probably associated with the spread of E-V13 (Thraco-Illyrian for the most part, but also Dorian and Celtic), for the Germanic sphere I1 and R1b-U106 became important, and for the Celts and Italics we have the specific R1b clades as well. This was a huge movement of people, from the North, to the South and West. To the West it will be less noticeable, because both the earlier inhabitants and the new immigrants will be much more alike. For the South East, it will be easier to prove with more samples.

    I wouldn't even wonder if before the Urnfield horizon, much more of Europe was still not Indo-European speaking. The survival of Basque/Aquitanian and Etruscan may give us a hint. Its not like Corded Ware came and everything was done and settled until historical accounts set in, not at all.

    The Celtic word for trousers, soap and some variant of spear are the only known borrowings from Germanic. Its strange though as trousers were not used in the likely Germanic zone in the bronze age (bog bodies). And on top of that, archaeology suggests a borrowing from the east of trousers not from Germanic zone. Perhaps the Germanic word for trousers later spread far and wide as a trading word if they became associated with excellent trousers (and soap) for a period
    Some Germanic tribes were known for their good hygiene and the importance of hair care, even and especially of the male free warriors. Like the complicated hair styles (Suebian knot) prove to us. I don't think its a coincidence and stress again that minimum two MAJOR steppe impulses of the Iron Age are likely, first at the beginning of the EIA transition with Thraco-Cimmerian, then in the developed IA with Scythians. And its possible that the defences in the Alps kept the riders out, but they surely reached the Northern European plain. This means the contact of the early Germanics with the raiders would have been much more intense than that of the Western Hallstatt Celts, which in turn had close contacts to their Germanic neighbours. So the new fashion and influences might have, at least in part, moved counter-clockwise around the Celtic core, through Germanic controlled territories. I wouldn't give it too much importance, but it fits very well.
    Last edited by Riverman; 10-29-2020 at 02:31 PM.

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     alexfritz (10-29-2020),  Andour (10-30-2020),  Echo (10-29-2020),  Hando (11-09-2020)

  19. #80
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    G2a2b1 M406> FGC5081

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    The remarks of mister Ola were right!

    I guess you mess up cluster 3 and 4 you messed up a little bit. My good guess is that they are one. There is lot of continuity between NW Germany (=Lower Saxony, Bremen, Hamburg, Schleswig Holstein) and North Dutch (especially Friesland, Groningen and Drenthe). This was already in LNBA (and earlier with the funnelbeakers) the case. Later on in migration time the Chauken/ Saxons went to the North Dutch area, and a few centuries later the West-Frisians went to the coast of Schleswig, and became the so called North Frisians.

    May be Westfalen has some resemblance with Overijssel/Gelderland. I guess that would be the better cluster 3 and 4!

    Finn can you explain this clushter's autosomal?It is obvious that NorthSea Germanics(Low German speakers) are way more northern shifted than the other clushter's that are mention above.What type of admixture makes them more southern than Scandinavian people?Do we have Bell Beaker(Similar to Dutch and British Beakers admixture) or it is mostly Halsttat-La Tene like?.I mean the NorthSea Germanic spectrum is very northern genetically but definitely not liike Scandinavians(Swedes,Norwegians etc).It is because Northsea Germanics lack some WHG/Funnelbeaker like DNA,or it is because they have come in contact with Halstatt-La Tene Celts or some type of Bell Beaker group and pulled them more south compared to the Scandinavian/Nordic clushter?
    Last edited by Johnny ola; 10-29-2020 at 02:35 PM.

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