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Thread: Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Norfern-Ostrobothnian View Post
    "French and German" peak area is probably more Northernly than what Hallstatt/La Tene were, I'd say it encompasses that specific South German French mixture, as it includes the Swiss and west Austrians too.
    Yeah its not a perfect connection, and there were tons of migrations and invasions that diluted that ancestry over the centuries. I would say this moreso represents the pre-Germanic expansion ancestry common to both French and Germans. That theory does line up with the coords from samples belonging to the Hallstatt / La Tene culture that I linked earlier, where Hallstatt seems to be intermediate between northern France and continental Germanic countries:

    image_2020-10-28_102856.png

    What I'd like to see is a breakdown of the genetic contribution from the Roman era, that would help filter out a lot of the noise. I suspect the Gaulish ancestry got shifted northwards by the Roman expansion and subsequent admixture in southern Germany and modern-day France. I'm part Welsh and even I have some small and very ambiguous "Mozabite Berber" ancestry that probably descends from the Roman period in Britain.

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  3. #52
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    Keep in mind only one of the Hallstatt samples is actually local, DA111. DA112 probably has Scythian ancestry, or something else eastern. DA111 looks kinda French.
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
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  5. #53
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    Double.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Keep in mind only one of the Hallstatt samples is actually local, DA111. DA112 probably has Scythian ancestry, or something else eastern
    Actually I think, independently from these samples, that especially among specialists and the upper class, there might be a lot of different Eastern and South Eastern influences. Its the commoners which will be less affected by this. But the extend will be seen if we get something like large scale samples from different regions, times and social strata. The spread of the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon is interesting and also related to iron metal works. Famous are the "Cimmerian daggers".

    In Mitteleuropa wurde der sogenannte Thrako-Kimmerische Horizont (vor allem Dolche mit durchbrochener Griffplatte und bestimmte Formen von Pferdetrensen) auf die Kimmerer zurückgeführt. Tatsächlich ähneln diese in Ungarn, Polen und Deutschland verbreiteten Pferdetrensen Funden aus der Schwarzmeergegend und dem Kaukasus (Koban-Kultur), es ist jedoch unklar, ob diese auf die historisch belegten Kimmerer zurückgehen. Östlicher Einfluss zu Beginn der Hallstattkultur, z. B. das Auftreten größerer Pferde wird ebenfalls gerne diesem Steppenvolk zugewiesen.
    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimmerer

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

    Of course, the anti-migrationists played these facts down, but genetics will reveal the truth and looking at the highly stratified Hallstatt society and the not that gradual spread of iron tools, I expect quite some impact. And these are not unimportant ones, but formative for developed Iron Age Celtic culture. Like in turn, the Proto-Celts played the role of developers for the Proto-Germanic Jastorf Culture, which they in turn influenced heavily, also, presumably, genetically.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    Keep in mind only one of the Hallstatt samples is actually local, DA111. DA112 probably has Scythian ancestry, or something else eastern. DA111 looks kinda French.
    where scythians around at that time of early iron age !?...............maybe they where Getae-thracian which seems to be similar to these scythians .......area of modern black-sea Romania


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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    where scythians around at that time of early iron age !?...............maybe they where Getae-thracian which seems to be similar to these scythians .......area of modern black-sea Romania
    Yes, there were contacts between Hallstatt groups and Scythians, but the point is that DA112 shouldn't be used as typical Continental Celtic/Hallstatt sample because he most likely was not
    YDNA E-Y31991>PF4428>Y134097>Y134104>Y168273>FT17866 (TMRCA ~1100AD) - Domingos Rodrigues, b. circa 1690 Hidden Content , Viana do Castelo, Portugal - Stonemason, miller.
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    [1] "distance%=1.6023"

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    Rome_Imperial,7
    Levant_Roman,0.8

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    For the sake of the sanity of the forum, these samples can't be published soon enough. Although I hope they'll provide us with a concrete answer, I worry that whatever they show won't be definite enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Actually I think, independently from these samples, that especially among specialists and the upper class, there might be a lot of different Eastern and South Eastern influences. Its the commoners which will be less affected by this. But the extend will be seen if we get something like large scale samples from different regions, times and social strata. The spread of the Thraco-Cimmerian horizon is interesting and also related to iron metal works. Famous are the "Cimmerian daggers".



    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kimmerer

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerian

    Of course, the anti-migrationists played these facts down, but genetics will reveal the truth and looking at the highly stratified Hallstatt society and the not that gradual spread of iron tools, I expect quite some impact. And these are not unimportant ones, but formative for developed Iron Age Celtic culture. Like in turn, the Proto-Celts played the role of developers for the Proto-Germanic Jastorf Culture, which they in turn influenced heavily, also, presumably, genetically.
    You are especially right about the Indo-European equestrian peoples of the Cimmerians and Scythians
    claimed riding with horses on a large scale for themselves and only through that
    Trade to Hallstatt culture in the Hallstatt C. period (800-620 BC) becomes the space
    between the eastern Hallstatt culture and the Pannonian lowlands to the eastern
    Black Sea region archaeologically referred to as the Thraco-Cimmerian culture Horizon
    (Contact zone) and thus riding during the early Iron Age after the Middle
    and Western Europe. As mentioned here, Hallstatt_Bylany D112 as genetic proof, but we need more results.

    I can hardly wait for the Celtic samples from many locations in Europe, I hope it will be published this year.
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  16. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    You are especially right about the Indo-European equestrian peoples of the Cimmerians and Scythians
    claimed riding with horses on a large scale for themselves and only through that
    Trade to Hallstatt culture in the Hallstatt C. period (800-620 BC) becomes the space
    between the eastern Hallstatt culture and the Pannonian lowlands to the eastern
    Black Sea region archaeologically referred to as the Thraco-Cimmerian culture Horizon
    (Contact zone) and thus riding during the early Iron Age after the Middle
    and Western Europe. As mentioned here, Hallstatt_Bylany D112 as genetic proof, but we need more results.

    I can hardly wait for the Celtic samples from many locations in Europe, I hope it will be published this year.
    Eatern Hallstatt was completely transformed by these Eastern groups and is most likely associated with Illyrians, as well as Thracians, possibly with a Cimmerian and Scythian influenced elite in some regions. We hae depictions of riders and fighters from both spheres of Hallstatt, and on some objects, unfortunately I don't have the exact source right now, but remember it very well, the Hallstatt artists were depicting confronting armies on a piece of bronze art. With West Hallstatt on the left, East Hallstatt, steppic warriors on the right. They had completely different styles, gear and weaponry and the Eastern one was completely "old steppic", for example without metal helmets and battle axes or war hammers. So Hallstatt is not even Hallstatt at all, especially early time Eastern groups might be very, very different from the latest Western ones.

    I'd say that West Hallstatt was almost taken into this Eastern sphere, but consolidated its own new fusion of the old and new ways, very much similar to Jastorf, which too was almost taken over by Proto-Celts, but stabilised and consolidated its own ways which led to the main Germanic Iron Age culture. The groups to the West, on the other hand, probably also because they were already closer to the Western Hallstatt sphere anyway, were on the continent largely incorporated, completely so with La Tène, which in turn transformed Germanics once more after an initial phase of isolation. But again without affecting theri ethnolinguistic identity, similar to the Roman influences, yet even more important initially.
    Its sometimes hard to tell how far the influence was going. Like were there really foreign elites on top in some regions of the Hallstatt culture, or was it just local elites taking in specialists, traders, allies and warriors they needed to develop their own reign? That's very hard to tell, probably even with genetic results. The transitions from one stage to another might be very fluent.

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    Just a reminder for people who are not familiar with Germany. There are 4 clusters in Germany which are different from one another.

    Cluster ''1'' is Western German the most widespread cluster. It stretches all over Central-Northern Germany into Alsace-Lorraine , Bavaria, Switzerland, Western Austria and Northeastern Italy. It totally correlates with a linguistic reality which is the High German language that is spread in and around.
    Its the southern most shifted cluster and typically occupies Halsttat and La Tene territories.

    Cluster ''2'' is Eastern German. This cluster can score as high as 50% Slavic. It stretches from NE Holstein down to Saxony Anhalt and Czechia. Those regions were Slavic (Wendic/Sorb) and conquered by Germans and Dutch people in the Middle Age.

    Cluster ''3'' is NW Germany. It is the closest to Dutch populations.

    Cluster ''4'' is Schleswig-Holstein. It is the most Scandinavian shifted cluster and was for a long time a part of the kingdom of Denmark. The region is home to Germanized Danes, Low Saxons and a group of northern Frisians.

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