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Thread: Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    Correct.

    They are just more "continental" and has more ancestry from Early European Farmers than the North Scandinavian populations.
    TRB Sweden was high in EEF, TRB Northern Germany/ Dutch high in HG, my mom for example has a more than average Sweden HG amount.....

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  3. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    I don't believe the southern shift in Danes, Dutch or North Germans has anything to do with the Roman Empire.

    Their lands were never part of the empire apart from the southern strip of the Netherlands south of the Rhine.
    In essence are North Dutch: Germanic influx (Chauken/Anglo-Saxons) with Bell Beaker substrate.
    Last edited by Finn; 10-31-2020 at 05:41 PM.

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  5. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    In essence are North Dutch: Germanic influx (Chauken/Anglo-Saxons) with Bell Beaker substrate.
    Does this Bell Beaker substrate account in some way for this "southern" tendency discussed above?

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  7. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Does this Bell Beaker substrate account in some way for this "southern" tendency discussed above?
    No, and I don't see the southern tendency among the North Dutch, Bell Beakers plot very close to modern Swedes.
    The 4 Danish samples in G25 are divided two are northern shifted, two more southern. I don't know why.

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  9. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    Does this Bell Beaker substrate account in some way for this "southern" tendency discussed above?
    The most northern BB samples we got are those from Netherlands-Rhineland who are btw the ancestors of British Beakers.They are indeed very close to Sweden and Norway.But we lack genomes from culture's like Northwestblock and Jastford who are LBA/IA period.We have no idea what it was the autosomal of these 2 cultures.There prolly it took place the ethnogenesis of west Germanic speakers,let alone 'proto-Norse-North Germanic' speakers.I will not agree with Finn here, cause even North Dutch and North Germans are not identical to Swedes and Norwegians..who in most PCA'S coming in the top of the north Germanic spectrum followed by North Dutch and North German.Danish samples from G25 are indeed between Scandinavians and NorthSea Germanics witch means it depends individual and 'region-province' when it comes to Danish genetics.With a few words to understand Germanic genetics we will need Single Grave samples and later IA genomes from the culture's i mention above.

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  11. #136
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    This sample for example is prolly from Jastorf culture or something,to me it looks between Scandinavians and Beakers.

    Distance to: DEU_Halberstadt_LBA:I0099
    0.02776723 Norwegian
    0.03044807 Dutch
    0.03162826 Shetlandic
    0.03179213 Welsh
    0.03249148 Irish
    0.03292203 Scottish
    0.03306743 Swedish
    0.03327305 Icelandic
    0.03357231 Orcadian
    0.03446844 French_Brittany
    0.03448617 English
    0.03452714 German
    0.03559622 Afrikaner
    0.03624567 Danish
    0.03696567 English_Cornwall
    0.04252893 Belgian
    0.04274762 Austrian
    0.04343070 French_Pas-de-Calais
    0.04412648 Czech
    0.04480614 German_East
    0.04523172 French_Seine-Maritime
    0.04645603 French_Nord
    0.04834393 Hungarian
    0.04890339 Slovakian
    0.04911328 French_Alsace

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  13. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    The most northern BB samples we got are those from Netherlands-Rhineland who are btw the ancestors of British Beakers.They are indeed very close to Sweden and Norway.But we lack genomes from culture's like Northwestblock and Jastford who are LBA/IA period.We have no idea what it was the autosomal of these 2 cultures.There prolly it took place the ethnogenesis of west Germanic speakers,let alone 'proto-Norse-North Germanic' speakers.I will not agree with Finn here, cause even North Dutch and North Germans are not identical to Swedes and Norwegians..who in most PCA'S coming in the top of the north Germanic spectrum followed by North Dutch and North German.Danish samples from G25 are indeed between Scandinavians and NorthSea Germanics witch means it depends individual and 'region-province' when it comes to Danish genetics.With a few words to understand Germanic genetics we will need Single Grave samples and later IA genomes from the culture's i mention above.
    I think they are the principal ancient ancestors of most Western Europeans incl Irish, British, French and Iberians, and others but evidently there was a lot of extra movement in these countries since the Bronze age.

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  15. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    The most northern BB samples we got are those from Netherlands-Rhineland who are btw the ancestors of British Beakers.They are indeed very close to Sweden and Norway.But we lack genomes from culture's like Northwestblock and Jastford who are LBA/IA period.We have no idea what it was the autosomal of these 2 cultures.There prolly it took place the ethnogenesis of west Germanic speakers,let alone 'proto-Norse-North Germanic' speakers.I will not agree with Finn here, cause even North Dutch and North Germans are not identical to Swedes and Norwegians..who in most PCA'S coming in the top of the north Germanic spectrum followed by North Dutch and North German.Danish samples from G25 are indeed between Scandinavians and NorthSea Germanics witch means it depends individual and 'region-province' when it comes to Danish genetics.With a few words to understand Germanic genetics we will need Single Grave samples and later IA genomes from the culture's i mention above.
    We have some Jastorf/ Elb Germanic samples though, the Bavarian samples (DEU-MA) are rooted in the Elb Germanic/Jastorf culture.
    See the fact that I still plot Swedish I guess that the mixture of LNBA/BB with some North German influxes doesn't mean a shift since then.
    So I guess the NW Block is at least 90% Beaker like (of course the mixture with the TRB genes went on). But of course no sample proof.

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  17. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstephan View Post
    I think they are the principal ancient ancestors of most Western Europeans incl Irish, British, French and Iberians, but evidently there was a lot of extra movement in these countries since the Bronze age.

    I guess that beneath the Rhine, is not the epicenter of the original Rhenish Beakers, the Beaker admixtures was kind of diluted there. For example with higher EEF? And also Hallstatt/La Tene may have had genetic influence on Belgium/South Dutch.
    Last edited by Finn; 10-31-2020 at 07:15 PM.

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  19. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I guess that beneath the Rhine, is not the epicenter of the original Rhenish Beakers, the Beaker admixtures was kind of diluted there. For example with higher EEF? And also Hallstatt/La Tene may have had genetic influence on Belgium/South Dutch.
    Maybe not in their purest forms but still we found Bronze age samples in Northern France close to British beakers. They still form the principal ingredient of Wesrtern Europeans.

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