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Thread: Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstephan View Post
    Maybe not in their purest forms but still we found Bronze age samples in Northern France close to British beakers. They still form the principal ingredient of Wesrtern Europeans.
    Yes they spread all over the place from Bretagne to Scotland and Norway......

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  3. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstephan View Post
    I think they are the principal ancient ancestors of most Western Europeans incl Irish, British, French and Iberians, and others but evidently there was a lot of extra movement in these countries since the Bronze age.
    There were pockets of BB everywhere in the Atlantic Europe and i am not avoiding the fact BB pockets even in central EU.From Portugal-Spain north to Belenux-Isles and to other isolated parts.What happened to these people?Vanished?Ofc not.They assilimated into the Celtic,Germanic and Slavic expansions.Ofc it is hard to differentiate the very northern BB folks from Germanics for example or some more southern BB folks from the Celts or Iberians and other populations-groups with more farmer related admixture.
    Last edited by Johnny ola; 10-31-2020 at 07:29 PM.

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  5. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    We have some Jastorf/ Elb Germanic samples though, the Bavarian samples (DEU-MA) are rooted in the Elb Germanic/Jastorf culture.
    See the fact that I still plot Swedish I guess that the mixture of LNBA/BB with some North German influxes doesn't mean a shift since then.
    So I guess the NW Block is at least 90% Beaker like (of course the mixture with the TRB genes went on). But of course no sample proof.
    I can't explain well why NorthSea Germanics coming behind Scandinavians and i will leave it here.There must be a well modeled 'study-paper' for the Germanic ethnogenesis sometime!!!!!

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  7. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    There were pockets of BB everywhere in the Atlantic Europe and i am not avoiding the fact BB pockets even in central EU.From Portgual-Spain north to Belenux-Isles and to other isolated parts.What happened to these people?Vanished?Ofc not.They assilimated into the Celtic,Germanic and Slavic expansions.Ofc it is hard to differentiate the very northern BB folks from Germanics for example or some more southern BB folks from the Celts or Iberians and other populations-groups with more farmer related admixture.
    In France and others places, they were certainly not just pockets but proper invaders. And the Celts and so on emerged much later among their descendants.

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  9. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Yes they spread all over the place from Bretagne to Scotland and Norway......
    Not only Bretagne, most of France.

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  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by jstephan View Post
    Not only Bretagne, most of France.
    I could understand the context in which they are called Renish-Dutch Beakers ( or french, iberian, italian depending of the geographical context) but weren't these guys supposed to be ( mostly) Ukranian, Russian ( maybe even some Moldovans) male warrior taking local farmer women. I do not think that these folks acquired their self-consciousness contemplating tha landscape of the mouth of the Rhine or wherever else the heck it was. Even the archeological BB proto package can be easily found in the Budzak culture of southern Ukraine, Romania and Moldova. We shoud call them with the scientific term correctly used by Volk and Heyder : EASTERN BELL BEAKER.
    Or am I missing something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I could understand the context in which they are called Renish-Dutch Beakers ( or french, iberian, italian depending of the geographical context) but weren't these guys supposed to be ( mostly) Ukranian, Russian ( maybe even some Moldovans) male warrior taking local farmer women. I do not think that these folks acquired their self-consciousness contemplating tha landscape of the mouth of the Rhine or wherever else the heck it was. Even the archeological BB proto package can be easily found in the Budzak culture of southern Ukraine, Romania and Moldova. We shoud call them with the scientific term correctly used by Volk and Heyder : EASTERN BELL BEAKER.
    Or am I missing something?
    Very true, if you go back in time yes, their ancestors were at some point around that area.

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  15. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    I could understand the context in which they are called Renish-Dutch Beakers ( or french, iberian, italian depending of the geographical context) but weren't these guys supposed to be ( mostly) Ukranian, Russian ( maybe even some Moldovans) male warrior taking local farmer women. I do not think that these folks acquired their self-consciousness contemplating tha landscape of the mouth of the Rhine or wherever else the heck it was. Even the archeological BB proto package can be easily found in the Budzak culture of southern Ukraine, Romania and Moldova. We shoud call them with the scientific term correctly used by Volk and Heyder : EASTERN BELL BEAKER.
    Or am I missing something?
    Yes you have missed a lot:
    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...r-beakers.html

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2019/...l-beakers.html

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  17. #149
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    I realized yesterday a little map of some modern European groups, from G25 data (unscaled of course), and a combination of relatively new technics ( sparsePCA reduced to 10 components+ UMAP). I have thought that it could be interesting for you, according to your debates about what some among you call the "southern shift". It's a large pdf. Download it, open it and zoom.

    quick_euro_spca_umap.pdf
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    By the end of Bell Beaker times (ie, before the Germanics and Slavs "descended" on Central Europe and added an extra layer of northern genes), there was already a fairly distinctive Steppe/Farmer mix on a strip of land running from the Atlantic all the way to Hungary at a latitude of 47-49 degrees north - precisely the area which is highlighted on maps as the Hallstatt / La Tène area.

    My hunch is that by the Iron Age, that mix had homogenized further to produce what was to be the Continental Celts.

    Take the average of the Lech Valley samples, and you'll probably have something close to the average Continental Celt (half way between Belgae and Celtiberians).

    For reference : Hallstatt Bylany DA111 : ANF 47%, Yamnaya 34.8%, WHG 18.2%




    Last edited by Andour; 11-01-2020 at 01:14 AM.
    Immi uiros rios toutias rias

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