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Thread: Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?

  1. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    No kidding, I feel very honoured to be associated with the Generalissimo in the same sentence, even though that honour is certainly undeserved . However, I do not see anything very extraordinary in these circular tables, in any case, nothing which requires special expertise. Any analysis result (be it by Admixture or G25 model, or qpAdm, etc.) can easily be represented in this way. Just one more marketing trick from MyTrashAncestry.
    The last one I totally agree. But the method a such: a clean comparison on SNP level is, as far as my lay-man mind will reach, not weird.

    Translated to the Celto-Germanic discussion. I guess the result of the Finn's is in the range of the NW Germanics of course but with an overflow to other 'outmost NW European' parts.

    That one of my wife also in Celto-Germanic range of course, but has something Central West European, is somewhat on distance from my graph! Other matches....

    What I'm trying to make clear is that my impression is, not only based on other results (G25) too is that the overlap in NW Europe is not only big, that's not new. But simply said there is a 'outmost' NW European overlap so in the North Dutch, Scandic, Scottish, some Irish, Iceland, Orkney range....so Germanic AND Celtic (or mixed) and there is an overlap in the range South Dutch, Belgium, West-Germany, Northern France so Germanic AND Celtic (or mixed) so 'Central-West' You can also see this in your UMAPS Angles!

    But this spheres 'Central-West' and 'Northwest' (just labels because Central-West is geographic still NW are more significant than the Celtic vs Germanic because there is no Germanic nor Celtic nucleus, only a Celto-Germanic continuum with different shades!!!

    I hope I have made myself clear, because I made multilevel translations

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  3. #312
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    Finn, there was absolutely no criticism in my post, and you know for a long time that I mostly agree with your bolded statement, and 100% with its last part ("But this spheres ... different shades").
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  5. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    Finn, there was absolutely no criticism in my post, and you know for a long time that I mostly agree with your bolded statement, and 100% with its last part ("But this spheres ... different shades").
    Lately I'm a little bit agitated so may be that influences my tone too much, if so don't feel offended (because no intention).

    But I see too much hang on to clearcut Celts and Germans. In genetic sense this looks quite obsolete indeed.

    Nevertheless what I do mis is a clear comparison on SNP level on gedmatch we got something like Archaic DNA Matches but that's kind of rudimentair.

    As far as I can see mytrueancestry did a clear comparison on SNP level, they messed up with the labels (that's indeed the commercial easy selling part), but nevertheless the method doesn't look weird does it? (as far as you can see past mytrueancestry is always utterly wrong hahahah). Or did they use some kind of freaky method?
    Last edited by Finn; 11-21-2020 at 12:02 PM.

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    @Finn: You seem to be a fairly unmixed North Dutch, approach North Sea Germanic of the ancient, and you get Norwegian. My wife is from an old Bavarian zone, with little other admixture, and she gets North Dutch. I'm more mixed, with non-Germanic admixture of significance and I get Bavarian-Austrian. You see the pattern? And its not even wrong, because many North Dutch are still more Southern, many Austrians, Southern and Central Germans are more mixed and so on. I saw it, because I saw the results of others, with many Germans having more admixture than I have, even without recent genealogically noticed one. So depending which kind of reference is being used, there will be a North or South shift, and both is not fundamentally wrong, because on the ground people can differ a lot, even between two marriage groups in Bavaria. You move 20 km from one place, and they have a lot more Italian-like, Balkan-like or Slavic admixture. That's just a fact.
    Same with Norwegians too, you move from one valley to the other, and they have more old West Norwegian, British, Danish-Swedish or Saami shift.

    I made a detailed analysis of my genome and those of similar Germans and I too get "Celtic" quite often, but that's just the label for "mixed person" in the Germanic context. It means nothing else, unless you split the components up and check for how much "real Celtic" is there, if the tools can pick from different ancestral components. Like your wife doesn't necessarily have so much more "real Celtic", but rather being a mix which shifts her from core Germanic in a Celtic direction - but not necessarily because of "real Celtic" admixture alone. And with real Celtic in these cases I mean pre-Roman Celts from Western and Central Europe.

    But one thing is true: The purest samples from the prehistorical Celts seem to be not too far from Germanic anyway. I got a lot of runs in which I had to remove it, because it interferred a lot with West Germanic ancestry, it resulted in overfitting.
    Last edited by Riverman; 11-21-2020 at 12:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    @Finn: You seem to be a fairly unmixed North Dutch, approach North Sea Germanic of the ancient, and you get Norwegian. My wife is from an old Bavarian zone, with little other admixture, and she gets North Dutch. I'm more mixed, with non-Germanic admixture of significance and I get Bavarian-Austrian. You see the pattern? And its not even wrong, because many North Dutch are still more Southern, many Austrians, Southern and Central Germans are more mixed and so on. I saw it, because I saw the results of others, with many Germans having more admixture than I have, even without recent genealogically noticed one. So depending which kind of reference is being used, there will be a North or South shift, and both is not fundamentally wrong, because on the ground people can differ a lot, even between two marriage groups in Bavaria. You move 20 km from one place, and they have a lot more Italian-like, Balkan-like or Slavic admixture. That's just a fact.
    Same with Norwegians too, you move from one valley to the other, and they have more old West Norwegian, British, Danish-Swedish or Saami shift.

    I made a detailed analysis of my genome and those of similar Germans and I too get "Celtic" quite often, but that's just the label for "mixed person" in the Germanic context. It means nothing else, unless you split the components up and check for how much "real Celtic" is there, if the tools can pick from different ancestral components. Like your wife doesn't necessarily have so much more "real Celtic", but rather being a mix which shifts her from core Germanic in a Celtic direction - but not necessarily because of "real Celtic" admixture alone. And with real Celtic in these cases I mean pre-Roman Celts from Western and Central Europe.

    But one thing is true: The purest samples from the prehistorical Celts seem to be not too far from Germanic anyway. I got a lot of runs in which I had to remove it, because it interferred a lot with West Germanic ancestry, it resulted in overfitting.
    The point I want to make is that my result come closer to Iceland than to the Rhineland. So this runs right through the cultural labels Celtic and Germanic.

    What I can see is that the Netherlands are on a fault line, my results come more close not only to the Scandic but also Ireland than to Dutch Limburg! That's seen the distances as such quite odd. So here are different founding populations at stake, but I can't stress enough this are founding populations that are fundamental to the Scandics and Irish! So not clearcut Germans and if you call it clear cut Germanic than it are clear cut Germanic that come genetically close to clearcut Celts like the Irish.

    So my main point is that in genetic sense there is no Germanic and Celtic genetic nucleus for some kind of sake you seem to hold on to it.....I think we can make a kind of break between genetic and cultural labels here.

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  11. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    The point I want to make is that my result come closer to Iceland than to the Rhineland. So this runs right through the cultural labels Celtic and Germanic.

    What I can see is that the Netherlands are on a fault line, my results come more close not only to the Scandic but also Ireland than to Dutch Limburg! That's seen the distances as such quite odd. So here are different founding populations at stake, but I can't stress enough this are founding populations that are fundamental to the Scandics and Irish! So not clearcut Germans and if you call it clear cut Germanic than it are clear cut Germanic that come genetically close to clearcut Celts like the Irish.

    So my main point is that in genetic sense there is no Germanic and Celtic genetic nucleus for some kind of sake you seem to hold on to it.....I think we can make a kind of break between genetic and cultural labels here.
    The transitional zone is indeed blurry, but whether the original core populations were, is a completely different question. Let's talk about this again once we have enough luck to get pre-Jastorf and core-Jastorf area genomes
    First we need to get good references for either core group, then we can talk again, modern samples are not representative in this respect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    The transitional zone is indeed blurry, but whether the original core populations were, is a completely different question. Let's talk about this again once we have enough luck to get pre-Jastorf and core-Jastorf area genomes
    First we need to get good references for either core group, then we can talk again, modern samples are not representative in this respect.
    Of course it would be nice if we had some Jastorf samples, would solve a big part of the puzzle.

    Nevertheless we have still a lot of samples nowadays.....I played with mytrueancestry and the biggest SNP chunks compared to the golden oldies. I used Finn Dad and Finn Mom's samples.

    My basic assumption is that the North Dutch have a LNBA/ Bell Beaker substrate with a migration ages Germanic drift topping.


    Finn Mom

    The most remarkable result for her is STR 220, a woman from the Bavarian MA samples. most probably Elb-Germanic ancestry. Apparently from the 1399 matches with this sample she is in the top ten (for what it's worth Nevertheless the Germanic topping is there



    But second one the substrate comes through, LNBA Haunstetten1946 BC POST_6, R1b P312, IMO a typical product of the BB circulation In North/Central Europe:


    Then it's really a tossing and turning between Bronze Age results and mostly Viking (high quality samples, so comes highly through) and other Germanic results.

    Finn Dad
    For Dad we get a low coverage sample on 1, and that's Bell Beaker Rathlin. Also remarkable:


    Second, Bronze Age Germany, aslo in the BB range:


    Followed by a Lombardic, Germanic-kind result:


    And then again the tossing and turning with Bronze Age (also Haunstetten, but also Scotland etc) and the Viking/ Germanic results.

    I guess the basic and tentative assumption is still standing, and related to the topic, an add Iron Age Celts were North Dutch like!?
    Last edited by Finn; 11-21-2020 at 09:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I guess the basic and tentative assumption is still standing, and related to the topic, an add Iron Age Celts were North Dutch like!?
    I wouldn't interpret too much into Mytrueancestry, its a nice site with fun results, but no more than that. I always get Lombards as top matches, because of their majority core Germanic ancestry, plus various Eastern and South Eastern European to Near Eastern admixture. The mixed Lombards plot right among Austrians and Southern Germans, but why so? Because the admixture made them similar on the PCA. Yet the number of Germanic samples, especially early Germanic ones, is so low, you can count them on one hand and most are poor, not usable for better analyses. Especially early continental Germanics are a rarity and from early Central European Celts we have somewhat more, but still not enough.

    Take the Vikings samples, as soon as they came out, they gave many Scandinavians a much better fit than the old ones. Will be the same once we have pre-Germanic, early Germanic, West Germanic and so on samples. This will be a complete game changer and what is there by now is just a fill-in for many of us. Even the Bavarian related early Germanics are not ideal and might represent specific clans which fit the best only those Germans which descent from them, if there any. Ancient DNA gets its usefulness from having the right samples at hand. No tool or site can balance a lack of ancestral samples out.

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  17. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    I wouldn't interpret too much into Mytrueancestry, its a nice site with fun results, but no more than that. I always get Lombards as top matches, because of their majority core Germanic ancestry, plus various Eastern and South Eastern European to Near Eastern admixture. The mixed Lombards plot right among Austrians and Southern Germans, but why so? Because the admixture made them similar on the PCA. Yet the number of Germanic samples, especially early Germanic ones, is so low, you can count them on one hand and most are poor, not usable for better analyses. Especially early continental Germanics are a rarity and from early Central European Celts we have somewhat more, but still not enough.

    Take the Vikings samples, as soon as they came out, they gave many Scandinavians a much better fit than the old ones. Will be the same once we have pre-Germanic, early Germanic, West Germanic and so on samples. This will be a complete game changer and what is there by now is just a fill-in for many of us. Even the Bavarian related early Germanics are not ideal and might represent specific clans which fit the best only those Germans which descent from them, if there any. Ancient DNA gets its usefulness from having the right samples at hand. No tool or site can balance a lack of ancestral samples out.
    Yes their commercial and hustling with label attitude makes it suspicious. So the start point is here 10-0 against so the say in football sayings.....

    Nevetrheless I assume the SNP comparison is as such quite correct, but correct me if I'm wrong.

    Makes your story plausible. But still the results of Finn Mom and Dad too.....they are both mixes of especially BB-like (R1b P312) with typical Germanic (STR220 is very very clear Elb Germanic!)and other typical Nordic/Germanic, migration age Germanic stuff.....

    STR 220 (Finn Mom^^^):


    Typical Germanic, has no Celtic influences.

    And CL93 (Finn Dad^^^) is absolutely in the NW Germanic range, typical North Sea Germanic stance:


    Please keep in mind that the North Dutch population is pretty much the same as in the early middle ages! That's a thing I'm absolutely sure of, no big influences or changes....even compared to Northern Germany (Slavic influence to about Hamburg, thirty years war, not the mention other turmoil there).
    Last edited by Finn; 11-21-2020 at 09:34 PM.

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  19. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Yes their commercial and hustling with label attitude makes it suspicious. So the start point is here 10-0 against so the say in football sayings.....

    Nevetrheless I assume the SNP comparison is as such quite correct, but correct me if I'm wrong.

    Makes your story plausible. But still the results of Finn Mom and Dad too.....they are both mixes of especially BB-like (R1b P312) with typical Germanic (STR220 is very very clear Elb Germanic!)and other typical Nordic/Germanic, migration age Germanic stuff.....

    STR 220 (Finn Mom^^^):


    Typical Germanic, has no Celtic influences.

    And CL93 (Finn Dad^^^) is absolutely in the NW Germanic range, typical North Sea Germanic stance:


    Please keep in mind that the North Dutch population is pretty much the same as in the early middle ages! That's a thing I'm absolutely sure of, no big influences or changes....even compared to Northern Germany (Slavic influence to about Hamburg, thirty years war, not the mention other turmoil there).
    What Samples are the STR from?
    Hidden Content

    Eurogenes K13 Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
    1. 63.1% Swedish + 36.9% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.93

    Dodecad K12b
    1. 87,89% Szolad3 + 12,11% CHV001_Chalmny_Varre_18th-19th @ 1,131
    7. 66.4% Norwegian + 33.6% TSI30 (Metspalu) @ 3.24


     

    Target: Nino
    Distance: 1.5423% / 0.01542331
    55.0 ISL_Viking_Age_Norse
    36.6 ITA_Rome_Latini_IA
    8.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA2


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