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Thread: Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Also, if urnfield was a key genetic change phase then what accursed luck is that from an ancient DNA point of view. The process will never be fully recoverable due to cremation. Just the before and after. But I do tend to think that archaeology infers that a wide variety of both IE and non IE speakers were culturally strongly urnfield influenced.
    Its true we can only look at before : after, but in this case it might suffice, because for some regions, we have a clear continuity after the EIA transition. That's why I consider the results from Pannonia being a game changer, especially for that area, where we might find quite different haplogroups afterwards and going after archaeology, a massive incursion from the relative North was always an option, with Southern Urnfield groups truly flooding the Pannonian plain and moving down the Danube and mountain zones Southward, forming Illyrian, Thracian and influencing Greek. If that can be proven, it will be a big deal, if not its the wrong explanation.

    Im not even sure that there was a consistent way of life beyond the religion and militarism.
    That's of course debatable, but that's quite something. I mean it really changed the way people organised themselves, viewed themselves, how they acted and what they believed. It changed everything and this resulted in a huge scale upheaval throughout Europe and beyond, with whole tribal alliances being either pushed South or going for conquest on their own behalf.

    My own feeling is urnfield in many areas was neither a language changer or a huge genetics changer. But there may have been exceptions to that.
    I quite think the opposite, but at the same time it wasn't a huge game changer within the Northern Indo-European language chain I spoke about. So its rather these groups changing positions and expanding at the expense of other people, rather than internal effects of big signficance, other than that whole people left the former homeland and opened up the space there too. I would compare it with the Germanic migration period, the Indo-Iranian or Arab conquests. But the effects might have been quite diverse, because from alliances with locals, which might have converted, to full scale brutal conquest with partial or large scale replacement, everything could have happened. That's why we need genetic data from those people's remains, before and afterwards.

    I am pretty confident on my deduction that Celtic had its earliest zone in an area further north and west of classic maps showing Celtic expansion from the Alpine area. I suspect genetics will confirm this and show that the La Tene era Celtic expansion was carried out by fairly beaker-like northern groups too.
    That's certainly possible, but the later ethnocultural centre was somewhat further South, closer to the Rhone-periphery of Central France, yet not too far away from the Germanic-Celtic transitional zone, which was later eaten up by both Germanics and Celts. So there was already an intermediate kind of belt between full scale Celts and Germanics, from the potential "Nordwestblock", to Central Germany. That's important for understanding Germanic development, because in part they lagged behind because of this belt, which didn't allowed them to have direct contact to the high cultures of the Mediterranean or the developed Celtic world. Only when the intermediate belt was eaten up, this changed and was the hour of birth for the more developed, expansive Germanic culture, which became the major competitor of later centuries.

    @Echo: I don't expect all those groups being simply Germanic or Celtic at the early stages, like written, some were unknown people, probably from a related continuum. Like the Nordwestblock zone, Central Germany, but also the earlier Tollense valley remains. All this groups don't fit into a simple Germanic vs. Celtic scheme. They could have spoken some sort of related dialect, probably even being from the same language group, but we just don't know and might never be able to tell.

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  3. #102
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    There is also a Nordic IA sample that is quite Eastern shifted. It is more Eastern shifted than North Bronze Age. it has no Siberian so it is not Saami. The culprit might be some strongly preserved sort of Estonian ancestry.

    Simlarly Levanluhta_IA_outlier is clearly NorthWestern European/Germanic drifted but retains an Eastern shift without Siberian. This also might suggest the farmer group he belonged to avoided mixing with Saamis in Finland but had long standing links with Baltic Sea/Estonia.
    Last edited by Echo; 10-30-2020 at 02:15 AM.

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  5. #103
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    Doesn't Peter Schrijver deserve Love?
    Last edited by Echo; 10-30-2020 at 02:32 AM.

  6. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Doesn't Peter Shrivjer deserves Love?
    He is a very interesting person to read. Im just not sure that the final narrative of his conclusions is right. I think he is right that the insular Celtic node is late. But I dont think that is anything to do with the arrival date of Celtic in the isles. I think the insular Celtic node is simply the point in which the last phase of strong Irish-British interaction dropped off. I think that node actually dates to the 5th century AD and has a lot to do with the Irish-British interactions in western Britain in the late Roman/sub-Roman era and very little to do with the arrival date of Celtic in the isles. Also seems likely to me that the post-Roman forms of Irish (Old Irish) and British both arose in a complex trilingual zone where Gaelic, British and Latin were spoken along the Irish Sea zone.

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  8. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    I think the Austrians are somewhere between something so proportions about half Slavic and Celto-Germanic, I think as far as autosomal is concerned, but we have some experts here who better explain or explain what the Y-DNA is, both are dominant in Austria R1a (Z280 / M458) and R1b (S21 U106) and especially among the Tyroleans, the Neolithic haplogroup Y-DNA G2a (G-P15) occurs more frequently
    The lombards settled in east austria before moving to Italy ...............if we are talking about Halstatt ......then it is only a celtic-"illyrian " ( pannonian , noric, some venetic ) mix ....with no Iberian ....early iron-age

    La Tene seems to have a Celtic-Gallic-Iberian-liguri mix ............but that's middle iron age


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
    Great grandmother paternal side = T1a1e mtdna

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  10. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    La Tene seems to have a Celtic-Gallic-Iberian-liguri mix ............but that's middle iron age
    If you are talking about the French samples you should remember that they are of poor coverage, and shouldn't be used to draw clear conclusions.
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  12. #107
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    The thread highlights the problem with trying to define some sort of Celtic speaker par excellence as a genetic exemplar of Celticity and measure input from that to other areas. Its impossible really to do that objectively. By the time there is good enough evidence for who was speaking what and where on a more detailed level, Celtic was already at something like its maximum extent.

    A more rational way would be to DNA test definite Celtic speaking areas from the 200BC-100AD sort of range (where possible) and then look for the common genetic threads. Then look at older samples to see where the common thread is earliest located. You can then look back deeper in time towards the periods of only very sketchy knowledge of the Celts and beyond that into true prehistory.

    There is a tendency to ignore Gaul and talk much more about the Alpine zone, deeper central Europe or Iberia. I think Celtic emerged within what became Gaul or at least part of it. I suspect north-central Gaul towards the west side of the middle and upper Rhine area may have been key. I am not sure of the time depth and an open to a wide range of possibilities from late beaker to 1000BC. This is also a key area for north-west European beakers in much deeper time. That might mean the Celts cultural-linguistic genesis took place among a north-western beaker derived (however distant from the actual beaker era) population. So, the autosomal signal of the earliest Celtic speakers might be very north-western /northern beaker-like. This of course would be rapidly diluted as they moved beyond areas where north-western beaker type genetics wasnt the norm. Conversely, when Celts of an overwhelmingly north-west beaker type genetic heritage moved into areas where the population was also north-west beaker derived then they would be hard to detect and also probably entering areas with close cousin type language and cultures anyway.

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  14. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    If you are talking about the French samples you should remember that they are of poor coverage, and shouldn't be used to draw clear conclusions.
    Davidski seems to be hinting that better samples of Gauls are going to show them being very north-western. So, it does make me think that the autosomal DNA conclusions from the poor quality French samples may be total garbage. The one thing I would conclude from the (presumably more reliable yDNA from those samples) is that the Gauls emerged from a beaker derived population where P312 was utterly dominant.

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  16. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Davidski seems to be hinting that better samples of Gauls are going to show them being very north-western. So, it does make me think that the autosomal DNA conclusions from the poor quality French samples may be total garbage. The one thing I would conclude from the (presumably more reliable yDNA from those samples) is that the Gauls emerged from a beaker derived population where P312 was utterly dominant.
    If they turn out to be heavily northwestern, like modern scottish/Irish people, that would be about as interesting as it could get....

    I suppose it would mean that the Romans did leave a major genetic impact..
    Last edited by sktibo; 10-30-2020 at 09:48 PM.

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  18. #110
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    IIRC, these Iron 'French' sample are actually from Alsace and surrounds. That's not Gaul. That's Germani.

    The Romans drew their own reality over unknown people. But there were distinct tribal groups (Gaul, Belgae, Germani, Lepontii/Golasecca, Liguri, Celtiberos) to account the vast territories.

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