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Thread: Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    It's not up to me. There are heaps of Celtic samples waiting to be published. I don't know why it's taking so long.
    Ah okay, so ideally soon, are those samples largely from England or where?

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    Ah okay, so ideally soon, are those samples largely from England or where?
    Heaps from England. Also from France, Italy...

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  5. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Heaps from England. Also from France, Italy...
    That's gonna be amazing. Can't wait to see the Italian ones; gotta wonder how representative the Hinxton samples we've been using for years now really are.. and of course, I hope for the numerous Bretons and NW French forumites here we get samples from their regions.

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  7. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    That's gonna be amazing. Can't wait to see the Italian ones; gotta wonder how representative the Hinxton samples we've been using for years now really are.. and of course, I hope for the numerous Bretons and NW French forumites here we get samples from their regions.
    I'd be quite surprised if the English IA samples we currently have weren't at least very similar to the incoming ones from England. As for the other ones I'd expect a bit more variation, presumably DA111 will fall somewhere in it, meaning I don't expect them to be like modern North Italians...but who knows, eh?
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  9. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ruderico View Post
    I'd be quite surprised if the English IA samples we currently have weren't at least very similar to the incoming ones from England. As for the other ones I'd expect a bit more variation, presumably DA111 will fall somewhere in it, meaning I don't expect them to be like modern North Italians...but who knows, eh?
    I don't know so it's a bit of a guess but the IA Britons were like modern Britons, the IA France samples look like modern French... so I can't help but wonder will the ancient north Italians look like modern north Italians?

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  11. #16
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    To the OP: Schrijvers is the only one who defends the theory that you mention, it is not by chance. This linguist wrote a lot of good stuff, but also a lot of bullshit, and that's the case here. In contrast, other specialists dispute the very existence of an Italo-Celtic family, arguing that the shared material is insufficient, and only points to a final phase of the development of each family in regions (geographic and temporal) in touch. This is particularly what Matasovic does, in the presentation of his Proto-Celtic dictionary. For me, the important material shared by the Celtic and the Germanic, and the fact that the zone of maturation of the Proto-Germanic could not be located so far in the South, constitute a decisive argument against the thesis of Peter Schrijvers. This is quite ironic, considering that P.S. himself defends the idea that the Germanic shift occurred in the Baltic area under the influence of Uralic phonology.
    As for genetics, it is very frustrating that the specimens analyzed by Samantha Brunel for the "French" of the Iron Age are too poor to be used with confidence, because, taken as they are, they are very "Nordic". I can't wait to see the new specimens that Generalissimo talks about.
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I don't know so it's a bit of a guess but the IA Britons were like modern Britons, the IA France samples look like modern French... so I can't help but wonder will the ancient north Italians look like modern north Italians?
    Modern Britons likely have Germanic ancestry, whether dating to the Anglo-Saxon migrations or the Viking era, so I'm not confident it's that linear. As Angles said French IA samples are quite poor, and heterogeneous, so there too is room for quite a bit of difference compared to modern north Italians. Even ancient Latins were more Iberian-like than Italian-like, so I would expect Cisalpine Celts to be even more distinct
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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    That's what the non-Germanic ancestry of ethnic Germans suggests. Also Peter Shvijer claims proto-Celtic originated in Northwestern Italy with the Canegrate culture.
    The first mistake you make is to conclude that based on the modern German ancestry Celts where the only missing piece between then and now, between Roman times inhabitents of Southern and Western German on the one hand and Germanics on the other. That's not true. There were Roman and general imperial colonists coming to what is now Germany after the Roman conquest, there were different Germanic tribes, incoming Slavs and later connections to Eastern Central European and South Eastern Europeans.

    However, during the Iron Age, I expect an influx from the Thraco-Illyrian sphere from the start, especially with the beginning Hallstatt culture. This influx which spread new ways and technologies and created the developed Celtic culture, together with connections and influences from Southern and South Eastern Europe directly. So we can expect especially for the early Hallstatt period some individual variation which will exceed the representative average for the time, but this influx will alter the general population as well, spread new components and haplogroups. This influence however might not be "pan-Celtic" in the sense of affecting all Celtic and Celtic-related people the same way, because its like a filter. What comes from the South and East will influence the Central European zone more than those to the West. Simply because the same processes will be
    - first spread by pure incomers
    - then by mixed ones
    - finally by unmixed or much less mixed people which just adopted the cultural innovations.

    So its like a wave which ebbed away and at the end of its reach, it will be almost not recognisable any more, even though its pretty much the same thing as in the East, but transmitted by people which will be (almost) exclusively Western, Bell Beaker derived. So I expect significant differences between different Celtic tribes and regions, depending on the time and connectedness to other groups. Like the borderline Central German Celts, I expect to be more Germanic, those in Britain more Bell Beaker obviously, and those in Northern Italy more like Etruscans, the ones from Eastern Central Europe closer to Illyrians and so on.

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  17. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Generalissimo View Post
    Heaps from England. Also from France, Italy...
    And from the Czech Republic and Poland there were also Celts living in some areas?
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  19. #20
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    The French Iron age samples are the best we have at the moment. And they vary from South England to Spain and South French.
    The Celtic movement was however most a cultural/language thing and never a homogeneous population.

    I am quite sure that Celts from South of the alps were similar to the Villanova samples. Maybe a bit more northern.

    The original celts were not a north european like population. Could not be. Considered the Italo-celto language connection.

    Gauls were similar to modern day French.
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