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Thread: Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?

  1. #21
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    a gaul is a roman exonym and a celt is a greek exonym
    will be seen if the exonyms indeed pose a genetic homogen. people, sofar doesnt look like it

    eitherway i would exclude the lepontic speakers from it as they are arch. derived from proto-villanova and as sofar demonstrated proto-v. is most close to dalmatian/balkan-adriatic(HRV) IA than else
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nino90 View Post
    The original celts were not a north european like population. Could not be. (1) Considered the Italo-celto language connection.

    (2) Gauls were similar to modern day French.
    (1) Yes, let's consider this connection:

    4. The Problem of Italo-Celtic

    Although Italic shares a number of sound changes with Celtic, I remain
    unconvinced of the ‘Italo-Celtic hypothesis’. Very few phonological and
    morphological changes are actually exclusive Italo-Celtic isoglosses, and,
    more importantly, one cannot really establish a relative chronology of those
    isoglosses, as one can in the case of, e.g., Balto-Slavic. However, there is
    little doubt that Italic and Celtic developed from a group of closely related
    Western Indo-European dialects
    . For a recent discussion of the Italo-Celtic
    hypothesis see Kortlandt 2007: 151-157.

    The following phonological innovations of Italic and Celtic are shared:

    1. The development of PIE syllabic resonants followed by laryngeals, PIE
    *CRHC > *CraC, cf. PIE *grHno- ‘grain’ > Lat. granum , PCelt. *grano-.
    Note, however, that in PCelt. the development was actually from *CRHC to
    *CRaHC, and then to *CRaC with loss of the laryngeal and compensatory
    lengthening of *a (see above, changes A6-A7 in the relative chronology). It
    is uncertain whether the same two-step development occurred in Italic.

    2. The assimilation *p...k w > *k w ...k w . However, this change appears to be
    late in Celtic. It failed to occur in OIr. deac, deec ‘10’, which is often
    derived from *dwey-penk w -om ‘two-fives’, and when this compound was
    formed (in Proto-Celtic) *p was not in the beginning of the word, and so it
    regularly changed to *f > 0 rather than assimilating with *k w (see Watkins
    1966: 145, but also the lemma *dekan below for problems with this
    etymology). In any case, such an assimilation is phonetically trivial (cf. the
    reverse assimilation in PIE *penk w e ‘5’ > Go .fimf).

    3. The shortening of vowels in pretonic position (Dybo’s law mentioned
    above); however, this change may not be limited to Italic and Celtic, because
    it appears to affect Germanic as well, at least in some examples, cf. OE wer
    ‘man’ < *wiHro- (Skt. vira-, Lith. vyras, Lat. uir, OIr./er).

    Morphological Italo-Celtic isoglosses are not more convincing:

    1. The genitive ending *-I is neither pan-Celtic (it is lacking in Celtiberian)
    nor pan-italic (it is lacking in Sabellic), and it is not exclusively Italo-Celtic
    (it occurs in Messapic and probably in Tocharian). Actually, it is an old
    petrified adjectival form (see Matasovic 2004) and, as such, does not
    represent a common innovation in Italic and Celtic.

    2. The generalization of the *so- stem of the PIE demonstrative pronoun *so-
    /*to- is a parallel development, since there are clear traces that PCelt. still
    had the pronominal stem *to- (see PCelt. *tod). Moreover, it is unclear
    whether Celtiberian shared the generalization of the *so- stem.

    3. The introduction of the Gen. ending *-strom in the 1st and 2nd person
    plural pronouns is not very significant, since the stems of the 2nd person
    plural pronouns are different in Celtic and Italic, and the forms that actually
    have this ending are attested only in OIr. ( nathar ) and Latin (nostrum), so we
    cannot be sure if they were ever pan-Celtic and pan-italic.

    4. The spread of the Dat./Abl. pi. ending *-b h os is uncertain, since in Gaulish
    we only have -bo, and Irish generalized the ending *-b h is from the
    Instrumental.

    5. The superlative ending *-smmo- is indeed a shared exclusive isogloss, but
    in itself it is not enough to prove the existence of an Italo-Celtic
    protolanguage.
    (Etymological Dictionary of Proto-Celtic By Ranko Matasovic)

    (2) I was first tempted to tell you "prove it". But in fact, your sentence is simply non-sensical. "Modern French" is, in terms of population genetics, a concept empty of real content. On ALL representations, and whatever the technique of analysis, the cluster of French individuals encompasses all the space between Spain and Italy, on one side, and Scandinavia on the other, and intersects largely the German cluster. What is a "modern French"? In terms of genetics: nothing.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  5. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    That's gonna be amazing. Can't wait to see the Italian ones; gotta wonder how representative the Hinxton samples we've been using for years now really are.. and of course, I hope for the numerous Bretons and NW French forumites here we get samples from their regions.
    Before being dead, I would like to have the pleasure of seeing those of Urville Nacqueville
    Recent Ancestry, full Normand. Known Genealogy 7/8 of the Cotentin peninsula 1/8 region of Coutances. Unfortunately, there are many missing branches on the maternal side.

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  7. #24
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    Modern Gaelic people cluster the most with samples taken from the Celtic Urnfield and Halstatt cultures. That's not to say modern Iberians, French and Italians don't have Celtic ancestry; rather, their paternal lineages intermixed with the more densely populated and culturally complex southerners producing a population that was genetically intermediate between Gaels and Anatolian-derived peoples in the south like the Sardinians.

    The reason this didn't happen to the insular Celts is most likely because most Neolithic Britons were wiped out by diseases introduced by them. Recent studies suggest that there was very low genetic diversity in Britain and Ireland at the time so its very plausible that the same thing happened to them that would later happen to Amerindians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    a gaul is a roman exonym and a celt is a greek exonym
    will be seen if the exonyms indeed pose a genetic homogen. people, sofar doesnt look like it

    eitherway i would exclude the lepontic speakers from it as they are arch. derived from proto-villanova and as sofar demonstrated proto-v. is most close to dalmatian/balkan-adriatic(HRV) IA than else
    I'd say it will come out that Celts had a "Celtic core element", like Germanics spread, but its much thinner spread out in many regions and therefore not strong enough to constitute one homogenic horizon from Iberia to Ireland and from there to Slovakia and Anatolia. And in some parts they met people which were very much like them, especially so in the Western formarly Bell Beaker provinces. So while Celts will have introduced Bell Beaker ancestry in some parts, in others they will have reduced it, always depending on the preceding inhabitants.

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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reggiemercer View Post
    Modern Gaelic people cluster the most with samples taken from the Celtic Urnfield and Halstatt cultures..
    The tradition on this forum is to prove what we defend, for example by referring to solid studies. So I'm waiting for you to provide a solid basis for this statement, otherwise, I would have received confirmation of what I think about it: pure fantasy.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    The tradition on this forum is to prove what we defend, for example by referring to solid studies. So I'm waiting for you to provide a solid basis for this statement, otherwise, I would have received confirmation of what I think about it: pure fantasy.
    Okay, I just want to make sure I don't trip any alarms for posting links because I'm fairly new:

    https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2018/...tt-effect.html

    "Perhaps it's not a coincidence that the likely Celtic-speaking Iron Age individuals from present-day England (labeled England_IA) are positioned between these older British and Irish samples and the two ancients from Iron Age burials in present-day Bylany, Czechia, associated with the Hallstatt culture (marked with black stars). That's because the Hallstatt people are generally considered to have been the earliest speakers of Celtic languages."

    image_2020-10-27_104851.png

    https://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.short

    Neolithic and Bronze Age migration to Ireland and establishment of the insular Atlantic genome

    "Irish Bronze Age haplotypic similarity is strongest within modern Irish, Scottish, and Welsh populations, and several important genetic variants that today show maximal or very high frequencies in Ireland appear at this horizon. These include those coding for lactase persistence, blue eye color, Y chromosome R1b haplotypes, and the hemochromatosis C282Y allele; to our knowledge, the first detection of a known Mendelian disease variant in prehistory. These findings together suggest the establishment of central attributes of the Irish genome 4,000 y ago."

    image_2020-10-27_105114.png

    I'm mostly Gaelic and Brittonic in my ancestry, and interestingly I actually match BR-2 (the Beaker guy from bronze age Hungary) on GEDmatch at 20.1cMs with the longest segment being 6.8cM. That implies that whatever ethnic make-up the BR-2 guy was, its fairly close to my overall ethnic makeup. Purely speculative of course, but it lines up with recent findings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    However, during the Iron Age, I expect an influx from the Thraco-Illyrian sphere from the start, especially with the beginning Hallstatt culture
    Riverman, do you think this could partly explain the South-Eastern shift we observe on modern Eastern French, Swiss, South and Western Germans and even South Dutch ?
    Last edited by jstephan; 10-27-2020 at 03:10 PM.

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  17. #29
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    Reggiemercier (and everybody): all those questions have already this year been thoroughly debated during many weeks (or months) on several threads:
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....raphic-history
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....he-West-theory
    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....ross-Irish-Hum

    In particular, I remember passionate and sometimes violent debates on the equation "proto-Celtic = Hallstatt", which is far from being proven, and in any case has ceased to achieve consensus. As for the effective role of La Tène in the Celtization of Ireland, it is an understatement to say that there is a matter of dispute there.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by sktibo View Post
    I don't know so it's a bit of a guess but the IA Britons were like modern Britons, the IA France samples look like modern French... so I can't help but wonder will the ancient north Italians look like modern north Italians?
    I expect the "north italians" to be alpine italians as many of these tribes where sent as soldiers to the UK by Augustus ............alpine Italy was conquered after the Roman-Gallic wars

    I also expect that the 4 year illyrian revolt against Rome by Dalmatians and Pannonians which made up 80% of the illyrians to also be heavily sent to the UK as troops, especially since the bulk of the population was relocated after the revolt


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