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Thread: Were Iron Age Celts North Italian-like?

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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    caution finn
    May be to far fetched but there even seem to be "east-Germanic tribe" influences around the North Sea in the turmoil of the Dark Ages:

    Whoever has heard of the Herulers will be surprised that their western ethnic group is mentioned quite often. However, this is due to the poor evaluation of the sources, a deficiency that Troels Brandt has corrected. The West Heruli appear in some Panegyrici (Mamertinus, Hydatius) in the years 286, 289, 409, 450 and 456. There they are described as pirates who - mostly together with the Batavern - visited the coasts of Gaul and Spain. Laterculus Veronensis (4th century) also provides indirect confirmation by mentioning Heruler both in the north-west and in the east.

    ...

    These Western Heruli already displayed the same demeanor as the later Vikings and may have inspired them, or emerged from them. In 478 the West Herulians are still known as residents of the inhospitable North Sea coast, as already mentioned, and since 286 at the latest they could have conveyed the first “delivery” of news from this area to Scandinavia.
    https://d-nb.info/978088018/34

    But ok may be all quicksand....


    Nevertheless some Herules influence would fit in these breakdowns of Finn Mom:






    http://www.gedevasen.dk/heruler.html
    Last edited by Finn; 11-22-2020 at 12:11 PM.

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Rise98 was indeed R1b U106 but a dead end street line.
    The spread of R1b U106 is most heavily in the range Friesland-Jutland, so indeed Single Grave context, but very post Single Grave I guess. Even post Bell Beakers, most likely spread is in EBA: Elp Culture (Sögel-Wohlde) about 1800 BC. See also the second oldest R1b U106 sample of NW Europe in Oostwoud/ West-Friesland about 1800 BC.
    I'm not totally clear on what you're proposing in the second sentence, but I don't understand the eagerness to dismiss RISE98 simply because of an extinct lineage, that's not very uncommon? I would say it's pretty notable, given its large absence in contemporary findings. Seems like there is a lot of pressure to somehow connect U106 with a Beaker-origin, while so far that connection remains to be proven. By all indications, it existed in the near vicinity, and now with the rumors surrounding Single Grave, an origin in Jutland certainly isn't off the table. Although I wouldn't talk about this as anything factual yet, considering the sparse amount of data available.

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  4. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bygdedweller View Post
    I'm not totally clear on what you're proposing in the second sentence, but I don't understand the eagerness to dismiss RISE98 simply because of an extinct lineage, that's not very uncommon? I would say it's pretty notable, given its large absence in contemporary findings. Seems like there is a lot of pressure to somehow connect U106 with a Beaker-origin, while so far that connection remains to be proven. By all indications, it existed in the near vicinity, and now with the rumors surrounding Single Grave, an origin in Jutland certainly isn't off the table. Although I wouldn't talk about this as anything factual yet, considering the sparse amount of data available.
    I guess Rise98 is some sort of outlier. Placed near to the coast in Scania.
    Single Grave core zone is this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single...ve_culture.jpg
    These are (especially the SW part of it) is where we can suspect an initial big impact of R1b U106.
    R1b U106 knows in Scandinavia less variety than in the Netherlands for example. A big spread out of Scania is imo not quite logic.

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    @Finn: I think you should differentiate more between your family members and what was going on in prehistory. These are different subjects imho.

    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    Are there samples on the way from the Jastorf region?
    That's a sad story, because the Jastorf graves are among the poorest from all of Bronze to Iron Age Europe, only occasionally they have added grave goods and even those have a very personal character, not a strictly hierarchic or wealth oriented one. So what these burials tell us is that the early Germanics were, at least in their burial ritual, but most likely in every respect, very egalitarian within their free members, a segmentarian clan society. Both before Jastorf and during Jastorf, we have almost exclusively cremation burials - they were part of the cremation horizon, like Urnfield Celts and Italics, just again with their very different branch, which adopted, but didn't assimilate. The first important graves with inhumation are the later highest elite graves in later Jastorf, but whether these elites were even fully representative or more influenced by Celtic or Para-Celtic people, we don't know. But these would be highly interesting to analyse, these almost princely graves, and any lucky find - probably something like Tollense, plus any later graves when inhumation became the norm again from the central Germanic Jastorf regions, which were not as much influenced by later migration and gene flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    I guess Rise98 is some sort of outlier. Placed near to the coast in Scania.
    Single Grave core zone is this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single...ve_culture.jpg
    These are (especially the SW part of it) is where we can suspect an initial big impact of R1b U106.
    R1b U106 knows in Scandinavia less variety than in the Netherlands for example. A big spread out of Scania is imo not quite logic.
    Then you need to clarify on what possible grounds we can call RISE98 an outlier? Because it was outside the Single Grave zone? I wouldn't make the mistake of enforcing some strict adherence between genes and cultural regions of influence, especially in such close proximity. It's only off by a tiny stretch. We know RISE98 was not an outlier in the sense of being non-local, and the autosomal profile is not very different to that of the other LN-samples in the same area. Beyond that, there's really no reference-group for the time being that can act as a proxy for what a hypothetically U106/I1-rich group would have looked like autosomally, except much later in time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bygdedweller View Post
    Then you need to clarify on what possible grounds we can call RISE98 an outlier? Because it was outside the Single Grave zone? I wouldn't make the mistake of enforcing some strict adherence between genes and cultural regions of influence, especially in such close proximity. It's only off by a tiny stretch. We know RISE98 was not an outlier in the sense of being non-local, and the autosomal profile is not very different to that of the other LN-samples in the same area. Beyond that, there's really no reference-group for the time being that can act as a proxy for what a hypothetically U106/I1-rich group would have looked like autosomally, except much later in time.
    It's my impression. Scania was/is not a R1b U106 hotspot and it's indeed just outside the SGC zone, although contacts are plausible (especially in Lilla Beddinge on the shores of Scania). But that's pure interpretation.

    R1b U106 in Scandinavia is mostly Z18 (if I remember well) the other lines are more sporadic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    May be to far fetched but there even seem to be "east-Germanic tribe" influences around the North Sea in the turmoil of the Dark Ages:



    https://d-nb.info/978088018/34

    But ok may be all quicksand....


    Nevertheless some Herules influence would fit in these breakdowns of Finn Mom:






    http://www.gedevasen.dk/heruler.html
    prokopios narrated a 'return' of the (H)Eruli to Scandinavia however doubtful as this is a good comp. of the actual historic narrative -post ~508AD/CE; will say that these brightred areas (map1) could no longer have been (east)Germanic per the exodus that defined the MP and then since EMA Slavic(wendish) settled; However since the percentage corresponds to the modern Germans of that area there is a fact that with the Saxon conquest mid 12th new settlers came with the new feudal lords mostly coming from old-saxony(westphalia) and also flanders and holland (also from firesland in wagrien) however i think it is certain that the modern pop. still maintains a striking wendish substructure; at the point of the (late)EMA i think its nolonger germanic history but german history

     
    Last edited by alexfritz; 11-22-2020 at 04:30 PM.
    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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  13. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    prokopios narrated a 'return' of the (H)Eruli to Scandinavia however doubtful as this is a good comp. of the actual historic narrative -post ~508AD/CE; will say that these brightred areas (map1) could no longer have been (east)Germanic per the exodus that defined the MP and then since EMA Slavic(wendish) settled; However since the percentage corresponds to the modern Germans of that area there is a fact that with the Saxon conquest mid 12th new settlers came with the new feudal lords mostly coming from old-saxony(westphalia) and also flanders and holland (also from firesland in wagrien) however i think it is certain that the modern pop. still maintains a striking wendish substructure; at that point of the HMA i think its nolonger germanic history but german history

     
    'Ostsiedlung' is also a possibility indeed. Nevertheless the idea and the link with STR220 is intriguing. That wikisource page is valuable thanks:

    As for the West Η. as far as is concerned, after leaving their original seats they must have gradually advanced westward in northern Germany to the region of the Lower Rhine: the one probably from the beginning of the 4th century. Laterculus Veronensis originating from (Not. dign. ed. Seeck p. 251; cf. Riese Geogr. lat. min. p. XXXIII) H. mentions alongside Saxons and Franks; Everything that we learn about this branch of the H. also points to the same region. Incidentally, we can observe that about 286 they advance from the Baltic coast to the west: in this year they threaten Gaul in communion with the Chaibons and suffer a serious defeat from Emperor Maximian (Mamertin. Pan. 5; gen. 7); da Mamertinus pan. 5 of them says: 'Chaibones Erulique, viribus primi barbarorum, locis ultimi' and furthermore the Chaibones are probably to be found in the south-east of Holstein (cf. Zeuss 152), this shows us the area from which the H. on their march to the West came.
    This article too, it shows that the Heruli were a Gefolgschaft, IMO it's a real possibility that a bunch of 'East Germans' settled in the North Dutch area....

    Who then were the Eruli? My answer runs as follows: The Eruli were a loose group of Germanic warriors which came into being in the late third century in the region north of the Danube limes that extends roughly from Passau to Vienna. Several of them were recruited into the Roman army in the fourth cen- tury. But they also continued to exist as an independent Germanic group. Like other such groups they were under aristocratic leadership. Hn the fifth century some of the Eruli joined the many other central European Germanic bands who overran Gaul and Spain in 406. But probably "re majority remained in the region of Bavaria-Bohemia, and were eventually absorbed into Attila's reign. After AttiBa7s fall, the Eruli experienced an extension of their power. Some of them joined Odsacer's forces, probably as Roman federates. Another part stayed in the Danubian region, but suffered a defeat at the hands of the Langobards, probably in 494. After various vicissitudes, a party of Eruli consisting of the royal clan and its followers trekked north and settled in Scandinavia, while the main body of the group accepted the status of Roman federates in the Pannonian region. Here they remained, allying themselves sometimes with the Romans, sometimes with the enemies of the Romans, especially the Gepids. Many members of the royal claw eventually rejoined the Pannonian group after a 30-year sojourn in Scan- dinavia. Gradually, however, they lost their identity as a group. After Justinian's time we cease to hear about them. Not because they were exterminated, but because they ceased to call themsel~es Eruli. They assumed other identities, as Gepids, as kangobards, as Sclaveni, and some, no doubt, as Avars, Bulgars, and Pater as Turks. In this, as in other matters, they were no different from other barbarian groups who were to build up medieval Europe.
    https://journals.lub.lu.se/scandia/article/view/939/724
    Last edited by Finn; 11-22-2020 at 04:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    It's my impression. Scania was/is not a R1b U106 hotspot and it's indeed just outside the SGC zone, although contacts are plausible (especially in Lilla Beddinge on the shores of Scania). But that's pure interpretation.

    R1b U106 in Scandinavia is mostly Z18 (if I remember well) the other lines are more sporadic.
    Z18 is the most dominant in the Netherlands.

    All the Allemani men belonged to Z381< L48.

    If we had to speculate (because we don't have a huge amount of ancient data) looks like core Jastorf was particularly big in L48.

    Jutlandic and Scandinavian tribes bigger in Z18.

    But that's about it. Alemanis L48 lineages are widespread in Sweden for example. Not surprising those lineages are older than the Iron Age.

    Other clades are more sporadic and widespread and don't evenly correlate with linguistic or geographic classification. Maciamo's tree is particularly explicit I guess.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...106-(and-Z381)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    Z18 is the most dominant in the Netherlands.

    All the Allemani men belonged to Z381< L48.

    If we had to speculate (because we don't have a huge amount of ancient data) looks like core Jastorf was particularly big in L48.


    Jutlandic and Scandinavian tribes bigger in Z18.

    But that's about it. Alemanis L48 lineages are widespread in Sweden for example. Not surprising those lineages are older than the Iron Age.

    Other clades are more sporadic and widespread and don't evenly correlate with linguistic or geographic classification. Maciamo's tree is particularly explicit I guess.

    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...106-(and-Z381)
    mc Donald:
    The Netherlands shows some interesting departures from the surrounding countries. It has the highest Z18 fraction outside Scandinavia. It has substantial numbers of minor lineages. It has a surprisingly large U198 population, but a very small Z156 population. It has the Germanic lack of L47, but while Germany and Belgium have large Z331 populations, Z30 dominates in the Netherlands instead.
    U106 is significant in Sweden, where it mainly is containedwhere it is most prevalent in the southern counties.
    Its northernmost extent roughly correlates with the northern extent of “European” expansion into Saami lands. Z18>Z372 and L48>Z9 are common while Z156, U198 and L47 are notably absent in this data set. Z372 is dominated by the rare subclade S3207: a 2000-year-old clade largely confined to the inland of the Scandinavian peninsula. It is expected that most of the undifferentiated U106 results will be Z18, and most of the undifferentiated L48 results will be Z9.

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