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Thread: Relatives sharing segments with different results. What's the explanation?

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    Relatives sharing segments with different results. What's the explanation?

    Hello.

    I am a spaniard that scores:

    98.3% Spanish
    1% Egyptian
    0.3 Peninsular arab
    0.3 Ashkenazi Jew

    That's expected. However I am from a zone in my country that had a little influx of other European regions in recent times.

    I have some English, Canadian and New Zealand matches whose grandparents are from. Some share up to 0.4% (4th cousins) and they are 100% British. As in, their score is 100% british and nothing else.

    I have a match from Bavaria, which I have ancestry from on paper. She is 100% French and German.

    There is this other match from Russia, also 4th cousin... 100% Eastern European.

    See the problem here? We supposedly have identical segments but they are getting different results at the same time. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't I be getting something different, or shouldn't them get some Spanish & Portuguese?

    On the other hand, the Ashkenazi jew is perfectly consistent. Every single 100% jewish match shares the same 0.3% segment.

    What's the explanation.

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by agil View Post
    Hello.

    I am a spaniard that scores:

    98.3% Spanish
    1% Egyptian
    0.3 Peninsular arab
    0.3 Ashkenazi Jew

    That's expected. However I am from a zone in my country that had a little influx of other European regions in recent times.

    I have some English, Canadian and New Zealand matches whose grandparents are from. Some share up to 0.4% (4th cousins) and they are 100% British. As in, their score is 100% british and nothing else.

    I have a match from Bavaria, which I have ancestry from on paper. She is 100% French and German.

    There is this other match from Russia, also 4th cousin... 100% Eastern European.

    See the problem here? We supposedly have identical segments but they are getting different results at the same time. Am I missing something here? Shouldn't I be getting something different, or shouldn't them get some Spanish & Portuguese?

    On the other hand, the Ashkenazi jew is perfectly consistent. Every single 100% jewish match shares the same 0.3% segment.

    What's the explanation.
    By curiosity, where are you from in Spain?

    If you have recent ancestors of Central Europe, is perfectly normal that you have matches of this area.

    Have you triangulate your matches? Do they triangulate in chromosomal areas painted as S&P? Normally if they are in S&P areas, are indicators of an iberian ancestor, or ancient genetic that connect these matches and you. They key of all ot this is that if you can triangulate your matches in determinated segments clearly differenciated, it indicates an ancestor in common, if don't, these would be matches with an ancient connection. I have many british and american matches, but I can't triangulate them, even some of them are in pile up regions, so it's relatively clear, the genetic similitude with them is through ancient genetic similitude. Respect to your jewish percentage, if all of jewish matches triangulate in same segment succesfully, is a good way to start to verify this.
    Last edited by rober_tce; 10-27-2020 at 01:59 AM.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by rober_tce View Post
    By curiosity, where are you from in Spain?

    If you have recent ancestors of Central Europe, is perfectly normal that you have matches of this area.

    Have you triangulate your matches? Do they triangulate in chromosomal areas painted as S&P? Normally if they are in S&P areas, are indicators of an iberian ancestor, or ancient genetic that connect these matches and you. They key of all ot this is that if you can triangulate your matches in determinated segments clearly differenciated, it indicates an ancestor in common, if don't, these would be matches with an ancient connection. I have many british and american matches, but I can't triangulate them, even some of them are in pile up regions, so it's relatively clear, the genetic similitude with them is through ancient genetic similitude. Respect to your jewish percentage, if all of jewish matches triangulate in same segment succesfully, is a good way to start to verify this.
    I am 2/4 Cordoba, where there was an influx of Dutch, Germans and Swiss people in 1791. I have Bavarian ancestry on paper and also a match with 4 Bavarian grandparents.

    I am 1/4 Cadiz, 20 km away from Gibraltar.

    And 1/4 Burgos.

    The Jewish results are easy to triangulate. Every match coincides with the same segment, which is also classified as Ashkenazi. So there are no doubts there.

    However I cannot triangulate the rest of the matches. I only have Spanish and Portuguese while the other matches only have only British and Irish , Italian, France and German, and even Eastern European. That is the point of the thread.

    I have 10 matches of 100% British people with 4 British grandparents. Yet I have no B&I admixture nor they have Spanish admixture. Also one of them is a 4th cousin. Those numbers are too high for them to be “ancestral”, aren’t them? Either they should have some Spanish or I should have some British.

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    I offer no explanation but agree entirely with your observations. I wish they could achieve the accuracy of the Ashkenazi category in more of their categories, but it's probably impossible.
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

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    Quote Originally Posted by agil View Post
    I am 2/4 Cordoba, where there was an influx of Dutch, Germans and Swiss people in 1791. I have Bavarian ancestry on paper and also a match with 4 Bavarian grandparents.

    I am 1/4 Cadiz, 20 km away from Gibraltar.

    And 1/4 Burgos.

    The Jewish results are easy to triangulate. Every match coincides with the same segment, which is also classified as Ashkenazi. So there are no doubts there.

    However I cannot triangulate the rest of the matches. I only have Spanish and Portuguese while the other matches only have only British and Irish , Italian, France and German, and even Eastern European. That is the point of the thread.

    I have 10 matches of 100% British people with 4 British grandparents. Yet I have no B&I admixture nor they have Spanish admixture. Also one of them is a 4th cousin. Those numbers are too high for them to be “ancestral”, aren’t them? Either they should have some Spanish or I should have some British.
    You are basically 3/4 occidental andalusian, so this presence of WANA seems normal for all of you in v5.9, specially with cordobese ancestry.

    So, the jewish ancestry is succesfully verified.

    As I have said before, if you have verifyied with triangulation and isn't succesfull, there are two posibilities: these matches are in pile up regions or show ancient heritage by genetic proximity (for example from Bell Beakers, that some iberians migrated to Great Bretain and Ireland in Metal Ages).When the triangulation isn't succesful, is dificult to find an common ancestor by this methodology, but neither is imposible, maybe comparing matches in another platforms it could be interesant.

    Other possibility is these british matches have genetic in common with your german ancestry, or this ancestry would came from germanic medieval migrations to Great Britain.

    How your not triangulated matches have painted the segment in common, S&P I suppose, don't you? If this is on this way I suspect that ancient legacy by genetic proximity is a strong explanation. As I have said you before, try to triangulate british matches in another Web like GEDmatch or MH. The quid is your 4th cousin. In which segment and chromosomal position is this coincidence? It's important to know this, due to the presence of pile up regions.

    Also, in v5.9 there is so much smoothing for iberians and some british. In v5.2 it would be more easy, surely you would score some british.

    Sometimes don't score in same cathegory between matches don't means that you haven't a common ancestor with them, relatively modern or ancient.
    Last edited by rober_tce; 10-27-2020 at 07:07 AM.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

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    You might find my thread over in the Spanish section helpful, which is somewhat the reverse of your question:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....zi-grandfather
    Ancestry on paper: English, Scottish, Irish, Welsh, Croatian, Ashkenazi, Polish and Māori.

    I'm currently on leave from the Administration Team. If you have any questions, please direct them to the Hidden Content .

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    Quote Originally Posted by rober_tce View Post
    You are basically 3/4 occidental andalusian, so this presence of WANA seems normal for all of you in v5.9, specially with cordobese ancestry.

    So, the jewish ancestry is succesfully verified.

    As I have said before, if you have verifyied with triangulation and isn't succesfull, there are two posibilities: these matches are in pile up regions or show ancient heritage by genetic proximity (for example from Bell Beakers, that some iberians migrated to Great Bretain and Ireland in Metal Ages).When the triangulation isn't succesful, is dificult to find an common ancestor by this methodology, but neither is imposible, maybe comparing matches in another platforms it could be interesant.

    Other possibility is these british matches have genetic in common with your german ancestry, or this ancestry would came from germanic medieval migrations to Great Britain.

    How your not triangulated matches have painted the segment in common, S&P I suppose, don't you? If this is on this way I suspect that ancient legacy by genetic proximity is a strong explanation. As I have said you before, try to triangulate british matches in another Web like GEDmatch or MH. The quid is your 4th cousin. In which segment and chromosomal position is this coincidence? It's important to know this, due to the presence of pile up regions.

    Also, in v5.9 there is so much smoothing for iberians and some british. In v5.2 it would be more easy, surely you would score some british.

    Sometimes don't score in same cathegory between matches don't means that you haven't a common ancestor with them, relatively modern or ancient.
    Yes, with 90% confidence I scored 2.5% broadly northwestern european and 0.5% British and Irish before the update.

    I think the Egyptian and Peninsular Arab are weird. If it was just north african I would agree with you totally, but we have had no real connection to Egypt or the Arabian peninsula. So that's weird to say the least.

    I also though it was just ancient legacy but that begs the question: why do have no Portuguese or French relatives at all when they are way closer genetically to me than these British, Germans, Russians, Dutch, Swedes... that I match with?

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    Quote Originally Posted by agil View Post
    Yes, with 90% confidence I scored 2.5% broadly northwestern european and 0.5% British and Irish before the update.

    I think the Egyptian and Peninsular Arab are weird. If it was just north african I would agree with you totally, but we have had no real connection to Egypt or the Arabian peninsula. So that's weird to say the least.

    I also though it was just ancient legacy but that begs the question: why do have no Portuguese or French relatives at all when they are way closer genetically to me than these British, Germans, Russians, Dutch, Swedes... that I match with?
    The arab and egypcian cathegories probably aren't noise, there is middle east genetic in Iberia, it could be ancient, even some althought less of medieval (qaysi and yemeni tribes entried in Hispania, in addition to sirian soldiers and Ummayad mawla or clients of Ummayad dinasty; yeah, they were very few, but something could stay here), althought much less than medieval NA of course. In addition, this new upgrade is more concrete. Clearly, the difference of WANA between oriental and western andalusian is reflected in this company.

    There are very few iberian and french testers in 23andMe, this is the explanation. As I said before, if these european matches don't triangulate, is very complicated to determinate an relatively recent ancestor (between 500 and even 700 years). Try another webs to triangulate them, maybe you could find something. If don't, is more probably that they share with you ancient genetic/genetic similar from ancient times, or they could be in pile up regions, verify it (about IBD regions) before of nothing.

    Edition: other explanation to WANA cathegory could be jewish ancestry. WANA dissapears in 90% confidence?
    Last edited by rober_tce; 10-27-2020 at 01:58 PM.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

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    Quote Originally Posted by rober_tce View Post
    The arab and egypcian cathegories probably aren't noise, there is middle east genetic in Iberia, it could be ancient, even some althought less of medieval (qaysi and yemeni tribes entried in Hispania, in addition to sirian soldiers and Ummayad mawla or clients of Ummayad dinasty; yeah, they were very few, but something could stay here), althought much less than medieval NA of course. In addition, this new upgrade is more concrete. Clearly, the difference of WANA between oriental and western andalusian is reflected in this company.

    There are very few iberian and french testers in 23andMe, this is the explanation. As I said before, if these european matches don't triangulate, is very complicated to determinate an relatively recent ancestor (between 500 and even 700 years). Try another webs to triangulate them, maybe you could find something. If don't, is more probably that they share with you ancient genetic/genetic similar from ancient times, or they could be in pile up regions, verify it (about IBD regions) before of nothing.

    Edition: other explanation to WANA cathegory could be jewish ancestry. WANA dissapears in 90% confidence?
    WANA stays at 90%. However, it was gone at 60% confidence in the 5.2 version where I got Cyprus instead of Peninsular arab, and it was non existant at 5.1.

    I am not saying it's noise, I am saying that every other spaniard get actual North African, if at all. I get no North African but Egyptian and Peninsular Arab, which no other Spaniard get AFAIK.

    I get no WANA with FTDNA or Living DNA. So I a getting very mixed results here, that's why I am putting it on hold until I get more conclusive results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by agil View Post
    WANA stays at 90%. However, it was gone at 60% confidence in the 5.2 version where I got Cyprus instead of Peninsular arab, and it was non existant at 5.1.

    I am not saying it's noise, I am saying that every other spaniard get actual North African, if at all. I get no North African but Egyptian and Peninsular Arab, which no other Spaniard get AFAIK.

    I get no WANA with FTDNA or Living DNA. So I a getting very mixed results here, that's why I am putting it on hold until I get more conclusive results.
    Not in all spaniards 23andMe converts his Middle East in NA, not all. In this forum we have an spanish with Arab peninsular cathegory and low NA, in spanish subforum we are talking about these questions and more. Between WA and NA genetic there are differences that this company are separating in this v5.9, in my opinión of correct form.
    FTDNA is still some reliable with new upgrade, but Living DNA gives sometimes strange values.

    If in v5.2 you score cyprus, maybe you have in your genome specific Middle Eastern markers that 23andMe detects. As I said you before, also this WA score be related with jewish ancestry.

    Obviously, you are free for interpretating your own results
    .

    Of all company test, nowadays 23andMe is maybe the most reliable, althought has its defects, like in my opinion his extremely smoothing.
    Last edited by rober_tce; 10-27-2020 at 03:00 PM.
    23andMe: 99.4% Spanish & Portuguese, 0.3% Ashkenazi Jewish, 0.3% Trace Ancestry (0.3% Nigerian)

    My Heritage: 91.5% Iberian, 3.6% Ashkenazi Jewish, 2.7% Middle East, 2.2% Irish, Sccotish and Welsh

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