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Thread: The Hormone Insulin as the Driving Force Behind Obesity

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    No, sorry. You need to read Fung's book. He talks about the Minnesota Starvation Experiment at length, which did not really involve "starvation". It involved calorie reduction of the kind you advocate.

    The Minnesota Starvation Experiment results actually bolster Fung's argument.

    Fung cites quite a few other studies, as well.

    This thread is about Dr. Fung's research. It seems to me I'm the only one posting in this thread who has even the slightest clue what Fung has written or said.

    Instead, we've gone on about keto, the silly "rice diet", vegetarianism (which is often advocated with religious fervor), and Twinkies and candy.
    Last edited by rms2; 12-01-2020 at 01:11 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Temporarily.

    After about six months, the body realizes it's on reduced rations. That's when it lowers one's basal metabolism in response. The weight returns, even if one keeps his calories down to the new, reduced level.

    The key is to break the insulin resistance cycle and to have periods in which insulin is low, since insulin is the fat storing hormone. Stress is a problem, too, since stress increases cortisol, and cortisol increases insulin.

    The old calories-in-calories-out, eat-less-move-more paradigm does not work. It has a 99.4% failure rate.
    Just an anecdote but from what I have seen from my family members you are spot on. They lost weight, kept the diet up but gained weight again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    No, sorry. You need to read Fung's book. He talks about the Minnesota Starvation Experiment at length, which did not really involve "starvation". It involved calorie reduction of the kind you advocate.
    no . they had their calories cut harshly

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post

    the Minnesota Starvation Experiment results actually bolster Fung's argument.
    how so ?

    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post

    This thread is about Dr. Fung's research. It seems to me I'm the only one posting in this thread who has even the slightest clue what Fung has written or said.

    Instead, we've gone on about keto, the silly "rice diet", vegetarianism (which is often advocated with religious fervor), and Twinkies and candy.
    do and believe whatever suits you . I dont buy into this . calories are the most important thing . we will have to agree to disagree
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    no . they had their calories cut harshly
    They cut them gradually and then restored them. You really should quit saying "no". It's not appropriate in this case, because I actually know what I am talking about.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    how so ?
    If you would like, I can quote Fung's book, The Obesity Code, at length.

    It would be better if you read it yourself.


    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    do and believe whatever suits you . I dont buy into this . calories are the most important thing . we will have to agree to disagree
    I've read Fung's book and have watched and listened to many of his lectures, as well as to those of other experts who agree with him.

    In the meantime, you haven't.

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    i dont need to read his book . that calories are the most important thing when it comes to weight is an undeniable physical reality

    the men in the experiment walked several miles daily and did physical work and had iirc 1500 calories of food . hence really low

    but anyway ....let me ask you this . if I only eat foods that dont raise my insulin (much) but eat 6000 calories daily I will lose weight ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    The people of Hunza live in a harsh climate but surprisingly eat very little meat and easily live well into their 90s and 100s. Nuts and grains,apricot based products, greens ,fermented cheese and yoghurt I would say make up 90% of their diet.
    But then you have Hong Kong, they have the highest meat consumption per capita and also the highest life expectancy(occasionally).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    And above all why not listen to the primates we evolved from?
    Well... We are not them anymore? There's been millions of years of evolution between us and them. Human digestive tracts in fact look surprisingly more similar to those of dogs and cats than Chimpanzees, Gorillas and Orangutans from what I've seen:

     


    Comparisons of digestive tract anatomy. It can be seen that the human digestive tract is relatively small. Compared with that in the pig, an omnivore that is often regarded as a model for humans, the human large intestine is much reduced. The dog intestine is capacious but relatively short. The hu- man large intestine is also small compared with anthropoid apes, here illustrated by the orangutan. The kangaroo, a nonruminant foregut fermenter, has a large sacculated stomach, whereas the hindgut fermenter, the horse, has a capacious, multicompartment large bowel. The koala, which consumes only leaves that are rich in tannins and volatile oils, has an extensive large bowel and reduced small intestine. Reproduced with permission from Stevens and Hume (1998). - source


    Shorter digestive tracts, very acidic stomachs, barely any cecum to speak of which is quite the conundrum if we are meant to be naturally good fermenters of various plant-foods and so on. There is a reason Humans have to process a lot of non-fruit plant foods as much as we do with all the cooking, grinding, powdering and so forth. We are more omnivorous than dogs and cats for sure but not even as extensively omnivorous as a pig for example. Something skewed Humans the other way in our millions of years of evolution and I think it's a no-brainer that it was the move into things like scavenging then eventually hunting as important food gathering strategies. Contrary to popular belief the literature* and countless anecdotes demonstrate that you can, for example, extract every nutrient you need from eating an animal like a ruminant nose-to-tail (yes, even Vitamin C) yet you would be missing out on nutrients like these and others if you ate nothing but a strictly plant-based diet (i.e. vegan):

    • Vitamin A (some cannot convert betacarotene)
    • Vitamin B6 (pyridoxal, pyridoxamine)
    • Vitamin-B12
    • Vitamin D3
    • Vitamin K2
    • Vitamin F
    • Creatine
    • Carnitine
    • Carnosine
    • Taurine
    • CoQ10
    • DHA
    • EPA
    • Heme-iron (most absorbable form)
    • Cholesterol (yes, a real nutrient)


    Animal-based foods are crucial for humans whether meat, eggs, fish or a later addition like dairy which is why no historically continuous Vegan society has ever existed in the Human archaeological record and recorded history as far as I know. Plant-based foods have value and were important supplementary and survival foods for our ancestors but they cannot support us all on their own. The initial eating of just them can cause short-term weight-loss and even a sense of cleansing as it can mimic a sort of "fasting" but, eventually, the nutrient deficiencies will catch up with you. This bit is purely anecdotal but I've been around these dietary communities for quite a while and noticed a high dropout rate among vegans for precisely this reason as you can see here. These same "Ex-Vegans" oddly enough become quite into stuff like the Carnivore diet and even "Raw Carnivore"** probably in some innate attempt to refuel on all the nutrients they were missing out on for years.

     
    * read any of the books of these "Carnivore" MDs you see on YouTube and follow the sources they share in particular.

    ** YouTubers like Bobby's Perspective, Steak and Butter Gal, Asra Conlu and KasumiKriss to name just a tiny few former Vegans who fit this mold off the top of my head


    Quote Originally Posted by agent_lime View Post
    This looks like a absurd diet and it still worked. I just cannot fathom how. Scientifically, even the basis of rice proteins seems insane. Amino acids can be gotten from many foods. 100 grams of pure sugar and rice and fruit juice. No modern study will do this. We could try this with mice. But I don't expect any good results.
    Something like the Randle-cycle comes to mind. I've noticed the problem isn't necessarily carbs or fats. It is when you mix the two. Seriously, eat nothing but table sugar and white-rice without counting calories and you will lean down. You will become a sickly stick figure eventually if you keep it up long enough and will be missing out on a crazy number of key nutrients but you will lose weight. Eat nothing but fatty food with at best protein thrown in and a similar result without emaciation ensue but it's when you mix carbs and fat, especially the former's processed and less fibrous forms together that an issue clearly arises. And the saddest part is that a lot of Standard-American-Diet (basically the Standard-Modern-Diet) foods are exactly this. Pizza, Big Macs, Chicken fried with bloody breadcrumbs and the like, cheese mixed with starches... It's all an unholy union of the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kirtan24 View Post
    These are all well respected studies in the nutritional science field, done by prominent researchers. Your guy doesn't even have a Wikipedia article, again with all due respect.
    Let's be real here. There is not a single adequate randomized control trial using a sampling of Humans proving any diet truly is the bomb and there likely will not be for ethical reasons. Most of what we can go on are mechanistic data, historical and archaeological examples, anecdotes and flimsy evidence like epidemiological stuff of the sort you've shared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    i dont need to read his book . that calories are the most important thing when it comes to weight is an undeniable physical reality

    the men in the experiment walked several miles daily and did physical work and had iirc 1500 calories of food . hence really low

    but anyway ....let me ask you this . if I only eat foods that dont raise my insulin (much) but eat 6000 calories daily I will lose weight ?
    A calorie is simply a unit used to measure the energy of food as it is digested by the human body.

    But different kinds of foods affect the body in different ways.

    Who thinks 250 calories of white sugar affect the body the same way 250 calories of broccoli do?

    After all, according to you, "[C]alories are the most important thing when it comes to weight is an undeniable physical reality".

    Calories are calories are calories, right? And 250 calories are just 250 calories.

    Based on what you're saying, there should be no difference.

    If you increase your daily caloric intake to 6,000 calories, you will gain weight, because eating anything increases insulin.

    But the effect of 6,000 calories of foods that only modestly raise insulin is drastically different from 6,000 calories of foods that spike insulin and keep one's insulin elevated.
    Last edited by rms2; 12-01-2020 at 03:51 PM.

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    Regarding various peoples who eat diets relatively high in carbs and yet are lean and healthy, etc. That is very true, but those people don't eat the Western diet of highly refined and processed foods.

    And here's another thing: those people don't eat round the clock.

    Dr. Fung explains that what one eats is not the only important thing when it comes to obesity. When (how frequently) is also important.

    People in the USA tend to snack. If we're awake, we're eating something, and a lot of it is crap. Eating raises insulin. Insulin moves glucose into the cells. When the cells are full of glucose, it moves glucose to the liver, where it forms longer chains known as glycogen. When the liver is full of glycogen, it begins the process of de novo lipogenesis, i.e., making and storing fat.

    In the presence of elevated levels of insulin, it is impossible for the body to burn fat as fuel.

    We need periods when we're not eating, so that our insulin levels can fall. Otherwise the body is in fat-storing mode all the time.

    Peoples like the Hunza, the Okinawans, etc., eat plenty of carbs, but they tend to get them from vegetables, not from a box from the grocery store or from the sugar bowl, and they don't snack nearly 24/7 the way many Americans do.
    Last edited by rms2; 12-01-2020 at 03:53 PM.

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    [/QUOTE

    Let's be real here. There is not a single adequate randomized control trial using a sampling of Humans proving any diet truly is the bomb and there likely will not be for ethical reasons. Most of what we can go on are mechanistic data, historical and archaeological examples, anecdotes and flimsy evidence like epidemiological stuff of the sort you've shared.[/QUOTE]

    I never claimed anything like that. All I said is that these studies are well known and carried out by respected researchers.
    "flimsy evidence" is how you put it, that is not how most people in the nutritional science view it. So again, to each their own.
    The superiority of a predominantly plant-based, whole-food, non-processed diet is well established.
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