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Thread: Srubnaya R1a clades

  1. #1
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    Srubnaya R1a clades

    Yfull uploaded some Srubnaya samples and analyzed their R1a clades, which unsurprisingly are mainly under under Z93.

    More interesting here is that many if not most Srubnaya samples are under rare and basal Z93* clades with some, Z280*, Z2124 and Z2123. So many of the Srubnaya clades diverged earlier from most of the Scythian/Saka R1a clades than Indo-Aryan L657, which is like Scythian Z2124 clades also under Z94. None of the Srubnaya clades seems to be very common today and they are often spread over a very wide region. It seems their clades were mostly replaced by Saka/Cimmerians/Scythians from the east who brought Mongol_N-like admix and also more eastern Z94 and Z2124 clades. Some of the Srubnaya clades were likely still present among later Scythians/Sarmatians and because of that some Srubnaya clades seem to match modern day East Europeans and North Caucasians. Based on all this i would speculate, that Srubnaya belonged to an extinct branch of Indo-Iranians or at least to some kind of early diverged Para-Iranics.

    MUR003
    Muradym 8 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 - 1685 BCE R1a-Z93>BY226207 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/ (closest matches modern day Italian and Saudi Arabian samples)

    KZB002
    Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1875 - 1665 BCE R1a-Z93>YP5585 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-YP5585*/ (closest matches modern day Indian and British samples)

    KZB007
    Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1755 - 1630 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123>Y934>BY30762 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY30762/ (closest matches modern day East European and North Caucasian samples)

    KZB008
    Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 -1690 BCE R-Z283>Z282>Z280* https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-Z280*/

    KZB005 is based on his BAM files also under R1a-Z280* but i could not find him on Yfull yet. He is the brother of KZB008 so he will be under the same clade.

    KZB005
    kzb005 Kazburun 1 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 - 1690 BCE
    Last edited by Coldmountains; 10-31-2020 at 02:43 PM. Reason: Adding KZB005

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  3. #2
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    Other Srubnaya samples from another study which were not yet uploaded on Yfull.

    I0232
    I0232 Novoselki, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93>FGC82884>YP1506 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1506/ (closest matches modern day samples from Pakistan and the Altai region)

    I0430
    I0430 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2123/

    I0361
    I0361 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

    I0423
    I0423 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

    I0424
    I0424 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

    I0360
    I0360 Spiridonovka IV, Samara 2050-1650 BCE R1a-M417 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post

    MUR003
    Muradym 8 Srubno-alakulskaya 1880 - 1685 BCE R1a-Z93>BY226207 https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/ (closest matches modern day Italian and Saudi Arabian samples)
    7 Tajik/Pamiri and one Kyrgyz from the GSA have been uploaded to Yfull and are BY226207+



    Most likely they are going to split the subclade along with the Italian sample into R-BY226207* and R-Y111548, the Saudi kit and MUR003 are negative for Y111548 so they will remain upstream in the branch.



    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/

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    These must also be part of the same batch of additions...

    yfull screen grab.jpg
    Last edited by btmacdowell; 03-21-2021 at 02:37 PM.

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    Most of the samples with the initials WGC/SAMC come from these studies:

    https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000458
    https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000456
    https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000278
    https://bigd.big.ac.cn/bioproject/browse/PRJCA000457

    A few of the Kyrgyz samples aren't downstream of Z94 and instead belong to the parallel FGC82884 branch.

     


     


     


    Unsurprisingly, the dominant lineage among the Kyrgyz is R-S23592 quite commonly found in the ancient DNA of Nomads roaming that area.

     


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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    7 Tajik/Pamiri and one Kyrgyz from the GSA have been uploaded to Yfull and are BY226207+



    Most likely they are going to split the subclade along with the Italian sample into R-BY226207* and R-Y111548, the Saudi kit and MUR003 are negative for Y111548 so they will remain upstream in the branch.



    https://www.yfull.com/live/tree/R-BY226207/

    That is pretty cool stuff and probably there are still some undetected basal Z93* branches with relatively many descendants in Afghanistan, Iran, Tajikistan and India. Maybe these Tajiks are related to Kashkarchi_BA Z93+ Z94- but i don't know their BY226207 status. Also i really hope YFull can find out more about the basal Fatyanovo Z93* samples. Also shows that Z94+ Indo-Iranians represented probably a small part of Z93+ diversity in Fatyanovo and Proto-Indo-Iranian Abashevo was still rich in basal Z93+ I think but with a lot of Z94+ already.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    That is pretty cool stuff and probably there are still some undetected basal Z93* branches with relatively many descendants in Afghanistan, Iran, Tajikistan and India. Maybe these Tajiks are related to Kashkarchi_BA Z93+ Z94- but i don't know their BY226207 status. Also i really hope YFull can find out more about the basal Fatyanovo Z93* samples. Also shows that Z94+ Indo-Iranians represented probably a small part of Z93+ diversity in Fatyanovo and Proto-Indo-Iranian Abashevo was still rich in basal Z93+ I think but with a lot of Z94+ already.
    I have checked the two BA samples from Ferghana but could not get beyond Z93*; they do not have coverage for BY226207 and the downstream new markers.

    Unfortunately, many of the SNPs added to the Yfull tree the last couple of years are not covered by the 1240k array of the Reich lab.

    Anyway, it does make sense that the further south the Indo-Iranians or maybe by that time the Indo-Aryans, migrated we see a decrease of diversity in the patrilineal markers.

    If central Asian countries were represented on Yfull/FTDNA on a comparable level to the West/Middle-East, we would probably see a North to south gradient, the countries closer to the steppe having a higher share of Z93+ Z94- subclades.

    This is pure speculation on my part, but I am willing to bet that this represents the earliest split of Indo-Iranian, a diverging branch that left no historical or modern linguistic legacy and got absorbed later by the expanding Scythians from the east (Srubnaya fits the bill).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coldmountains View Post
    Other Srubnaya samples from another study which were not yet uploaded on Yfull.

    I0232
    I0232 Novoselki, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93>FGC82884>YP1506 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-YP1506/ (closest matches modern day samples from Pakistan and the Altai region)

    I0430
    I0430 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124>Z2125>Z2123 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2123/

    I0361
    I0361 Spiridonovka II, Samara 1850-1600 BCE R-Z93>Z94>Z2124 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z2124/

    I0423
    I0423 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 Yfull: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

    I0424
    I0424 Barinovka I, Samara 1850-1200 BCE R-Z93 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Z93/

    I0360
    I0360 Spiridonovka IV, Samara 2050-1650 BCE R1a-M417 Here analyzed: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....-samples/page3 Yfull:https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-M417/
    Does the R1a-M417 sample 10360 fall under R-CTS4385, that would be interesting?
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    Quote Originally Posted by altvred View Post
    I have checked the two BA samples from Ferghana but could not get beyond Z93*; they do not have coverage for BY226207 and the downstream new markers.

    Unfortunately, many of the SNPs added to the Yfull tree the last couple of years are not covered by the 1240k array of the Reich lab.

    Anyway, it does make sense that the further south the Indo-Iranians or maybe by that time the Indo-Aryans, migrated we see a decrease of diversity in the patrilineal markers.

    If central Asian countries were represented on Yfull/FTDNA on a comparable level to the West/Middle-East, we would probably see a North to south gradient, the countries closer to the steppe having a higher share of Z93+ Z94- subclades.

    This is pure speculation on my part, but I am willing to bet that this represents the earliest split of Indo-Iranian, a diverging branch that left no historical or modern linguistic legacy and got absorbed later by the expanding Scythians from the east (Srubnaya fits the bill).
    Z93* and the Z94- clades are probably older than 3000 B.C so likely formed long before the split and formation of Indo-Iranians. It is likely that Proto-Indo-Iranians, Proto-Indo-Aryans and Proto-Iranics already carried Z94- and even basal R1a from PII. Because of that R1a-Z93- is found in (South) India too which likely derives almost all of their R1a from early Indo-Aryans

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