Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 15

Thread: The relation between CHG and Iran_N

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    135

    The relation between CHG and Iran_N

    Quite often you hear how those two populations essentially form a continuous cline, and in many published papers CHG-specific signal is often labeled as Iranian-related, as if they have a MA1/AG3-like relation. This notion is also supported on ADMIXTURE where the bulk of CHG and Iran_N ancestry is the same. Yet on G25 those two populations have a rather large genetic distance.
    I made some ghosts using Genoplot in order to try to breakdown the mentioned populations further.

    The "core" ghosts are derived by observing West Eurasian, Middle Eastern, East Eurasian, Basal and ANE signals in Iran_N and CHG.
    The "cores" are pretty distant from each other, but still closer to each other than any other published sample, this may be due to sensitivity to drift in the simulation. They occupy a pretty faraway place on the PCA. From what I see, the CHG core seems to be more West Eurasian-shifted in comparison to Iran core, which in turn seems to be more Basal-shifted. I think Basal Eurasians should occupy the Eastern part on the West Eurasian PCA, opposite to WHG who occupy the Western part.

    Some notes:
    Mesolithic Kotia seems to have more Anatolian ancestry than Upper Paleolithic Satsurblia. Perhaps this is related to the movements during the Trialetian culture?
    The Natufian-related ancestry in Iran_N should be less Taforalt-rich than the current Natufian samples (I use the default averaged G25 Natufian samples, and that's partly the reason why the fits for Iran_N are worse than the fits for CHG). I've observed the same for Gulf Arabs, they're also better modeled with Natufian ghosts that have less Taforalt ancestry. Perhaps the source was from Kebarans, rather than Natufians?
    The AASI in Iran_N slightly drops if you use MA1 instead of AG3. Were the ANE contributors to Iran_N also the source of their AASI ancestry?

    I also wondered how much the distance would change if I tried replacing the secondary ancestries in CHG/Iran_N in order to "turn" them into the opposite, but keeping the "core" intact. As you can see, "CHG_into_IranN" did become more close to Ganj Dareh, but only slightly so, same applies to "IranN_into_CHG".

    Looking at Archeological trails, the Caucasus in the Upper Paleolithic used to have some Aurignacian-like and Gravettian lithic cultures, then followed by an LGM hiatus a culture related to Zagrosian Baradostian appeared, and coincidentally, Iran_N can also be ultimately linked to Baradostian. But at around the same time you hear of an Epigravettian appearance in the Caucasus. And sadly, the Caucasus is lacking in any intact Upper Paleolithic skulls. The only thing that I could find is this skullcap from North Caucasus, Adygea, in grotto Satanay. They're not sure of the dating either, it ranges from 36k to 8k years BC, it may or may not be a CHG, craniometrically it is most similar to Kostenki14, Kostenki2 and Pavlov Gravettians. The Hotu skulls in comparison were labeled as "Cromagnid".
    What I'm curious about is, are CHG an archaic kind of Iran_N that mixed with Dzudzuana/Anatolians and West Eurasians? Or are Iran_N a more basal-rich CHG with Natufian/Kebaran and East Eurasian ancestry? And if they both have ANE, then where would they receive it?
    CHGvsIran_N.pngPCA.pngSatanayMale.pngHotuFemale.jpg

  2. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Korotyr For This Useful Post:

     Cynic (06-19-2021),  Helen (11-02-2020),  Helves (11-01-2020),  maroco (11-07-2020),  parasar (11-03-2020),  Rafe (11-02-2020),  thejkhan (11-01-2020)

  3. #2
    Banned
    Posts
    970
    Sex
    Location
    northern west asia
    Ethnicity
    Kurdish (from Turkey)
    Nationality
    potato
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-L29
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Kurdistan Turkey Kurdistan Kingdom Germany Bundeswappen
    Quote Originally Posted by Korotyr View Post
    What I'm curious about is, are CHG an archaic kind of Iran_N that mixed with Dzudzuana/Anatolians and West Eurasians? Or are Iran_N a more basal-rich CHG with Natufian/Kebaran and East Eurasian ancestry? And if they both have ANE, then where would they receive it?
    CHGvsIran_N.pngPCA.pngSatanayMale.pngHotuFemale.jpg
    my guess is that CHG = Iran N with some EHG shift


    btw. where do you have the Satsurblia coordinates from ? can you share them please ?

    oh and btw. if you want to have an approx for Dzudzuana you should take Pinarbasi HG . not Barcin
    Last edited by Magnetic; 11-01-2020 at 11:53 AM.

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Magnetic For This Useful Post:

     Helen (11-02-2020)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,353
    Sex

    I am certainly interested in the background of all of thos since Y-DNA J seems to be connected with both CHG and Iran_N.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to J Man For This Useful Post:

     Korotyr (11-01-2020)

  7. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    135

    btw. where do you have the Satsurblia coordinates from ? can you share them please ?
    From one of the threads on Eurogenes.
     
    Satsurblia_scaled,0.092197,0.101553,-0.093526,-0.000969,-0.092633,0.020917,0.030786,-0.001615,-0.139281,-0.085833,-0.002923,0.024278,-0.058424,0.009634,0.036373,-0.022938,0.044591,-0.008488,-0.027025,0.042896,0.04517,-0.009521,0.001849,-0.030245,-0.002515

    Satsurblia,0.0081,0.01,-0.0248,-0.0003,-0.0301,0.0075,0.0131,-0.0007,-0.0681,-0.0471,-0.0018,0.0162,-0.0393,0.007,0.0268,-0.0173,0.0342,-0.0067,-0.0215,0.0343,0.0362,-0.0077,0.0015,-0.0251,-0.0021


    oh and btw. if you want to have an approx for Dzudzuana you should take Pinarbasi HG . not Barcin
    I think Pinarbasi has too much WHG ancestry compared to Dzudzuana

  8. #5
    Banned
    Posts
    970
    Sex
    Location
    northern west asia
    Ethnicity
    Kurdish (from Turkey)
    Nationality
    potato
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-L29
    mtDNA (M)
    H

    Kurdistan Turkey Kurdistan Kingdom Germany Bundeswappen
    thanks mate

  9. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    609
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Assyrian
    Y-DNA (P)
    G1a
    mtDNA (M)
    I5b1

    Sweden
    How exactly do you create the cores?

    Also do you mind sharing the coordinates for the Natufian ghost with less Taforalt-related admixture?

  10. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    135

    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    How exactly do you create the cores?

    Also do you mind sharing the coordinates for the Natufian ghost with less Taforalt-related admixture?
    Genoplot subtraction feature in the ghost section. The "core" ghosts are derived by observing West Eurasian, Middle Eastern, East Eurasian, Basal and ANE signals in Iran_N and CHG, and then subtracting from them the already established ancestries such as ANE, AASI, Anatolia etc.

    Natufian_-Taforalt(simulated),0.154549,0.185486,-0.045424,-0.181721,0.03489,-0.100323,0.001981,-0.039605,0.09774,0.004875,0.044136,-0.019354,0.081207,0.037592,-0.017759,0.025542,-0.036934,0.037069,0.054803,0.04523,0.025848,0.0795 25,-0.051595,0.007188,0.001536

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Korotyr For This Useful Post:

     Helves (11-01-2020),  maroco (11-01-2020),  ThaYamamoto (11-01-2020)

  12. #8
    Banned
    Posts
    2,061
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2a2b1 M406> FGC5081

    It would be good to know what ydna-lineages represent and are associated with Iran N and CHG.I guess most people will say J but we should note also some R right?

  13. #9
    Banned
    Posts
    2,061
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2a2b1 M406> FGC5081

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnetic View Post
    my guess is that CHG = Iran N with some EHG shift


    btw. where do you have the Satsurblia coordinates from ? can you share them please ?

    oh and btw. if you want to have an approx for Dzudzuana you should take Pinarbasi HG . not Barcin
    There is not any EHG admixture in the CHG simply because EHG is a mixed component as wel.Its just CHG being more Dzudzuana like,thus more west eurasian compared to Iran N.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Johnny ola For This Useful Post:

     Helen (11-02-2020)

  15. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    135

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    It would be good to know what ydna-lineages represent and are associated with Iran N and CHG.I guess most people will say J but we should note also some R right?
    So far CHG can be associated with J only. Iran_N have loads of haplogroups - J, G, R2, probably L too.

  16. The Following User Says Thank You to Korotyr For This Useful Post:

     Johnny ola (11-01-2020)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Iran_N in MA1?
    By Korotyr in forum Ancient (aDNA)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-17-2020, 08:38 AM
  2. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 07-17-2018, 05:05 PM
  3. Approximating degree of relation for small cM.
    By Svabinsky in forum General
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 01-21-2017, 05:50 AM
  4. Replies: 82
    Last Post: 10-18-2015, 06:55 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •