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Thread: What lead to the resurgence of WHG ancestry and Y-dna in Neolithic Europe?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Ertebølle in particular was one of the forager strongholds, typically most forager strongholds were close to the sea or big rivers, like Ertebølle, Lower Don and Yellow River people. They had the demographic strength and cultural practises which made them more resilient and allowed them to adopt Neolithic innovations on their own terms. There can be little doubt that Ertebølle contributed significantly to TRB and GAC.
    Yes and the range is differentiated TRB Sweden and Poland have had significant more EEF.

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    There are Polish individuals that look like Blatterhole.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    There are Polish individuals that look like Blatterhole.
    Simple model, G25 unscaled.
    Schermafbeelding 2021-01-23 om 18.01.34.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rohlfsen View Post
    There are Polish individuals that look like Blatterhole.
    See this paper,
    https://www.researchgate.net/publica...and_of_Gotland

    TRB-F is from Ostorf Mecklenburg Germany, pretty much in the PWC (/ Ertebølle) corner (Pol TRB in the EEF corner).

    Schermafbeelding 2021-01-23 om 18.08.21.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Finn View Post
    It looks like these WHG-rich farmers around the Dutch-German-Belgian border area are not that important for modern day NW Europeans. The Swedish farmers with much lower WHG-levels are preferred.

    Target: Norwegian
    Distance: 3.1433% / 0.03143284
    55.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    41.2 SWE_TRB
    3.2 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN

    Target: Dutch
    Distance: 2.9657% / 0.02965676
    53.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    46.4 SWE_TRB
    0.0 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    It looks like these WHG-rich farmers around the Dutch-German-Belgian border area are not that important for modern day NW Europeans. The Swedish farmers with much lower WHG-levels are preferred.

    Target: Norwegian
    Distance: 3.1433% / 0.03143284
    55.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    41.2 SWE_TRB
    3.2 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN

    Target: Dutch
    Distance: 2.9657% / 0.02965676
    53.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    46.4 SWE_TRB
    0.0 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN
    Generally yes, but the North Dutch are a touch different:
    Schermafbeelding 2021-01-23 om 20.07.10.png

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    It looks like these WHG-rich farmers around the Dutch-German-Belgian border area are not that important for modern day NW Europeans. The Swedish farmers with much lower WHG-levels are preferred.

    Target: Norwegian
    Distance: 3.1433% / 0.03143284
    55.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    41.2 SWE_TRB
    3.2 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN

    Target: Dutch
    Distance: 2.9657% / 0.02965676
    53.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    46.4 SWE_TRB
    0.0 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN
    OHW! you took the scaled one....I guess mom and I are pretty off road then!!!

    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Finn; 01-23-2021 at 09:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    It looks like these WHG-rich farmers around the Dutch-German-Belgian border area are not that important for modern day NW Europeans. The Swedish farmers with much lower WHG-levels are preferred.

    Target: Norwegian
    Distance: 3.1433% / 0.03143284
    55.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    41.2 SWE_TRB
    3.2 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN

    Target: Dutch
    Distance: 2.9657% / 0.02965676
    53.6 Corded_Ware_Baltic_early
    46.4 SWE_TRB
    0.0 DEU_Blatterhohle_MN
    It may have just been diluted over time. It was definitely important into the Beaker period and beyond. Here's some F3 outgroup affinities to Iron_Gates_HG
    Steppe_EBA average ('pure' Yamnaya, Afanasievo, Poltavka, Catacomb): 0.2777
    England_N: 0.2861
    Scotland_Isbister_N: 0.2862
    Poland_GAC: 0.2864
    And those are some of the higher WHG populations of Europe at the time.

    England_BellBeaker: 0.2861
    Netherlands_Oostwoud_BellBeaker: 0.2873
    Scotland_BellBeaker: 0.2858

    They are matching that high-level of WHG affinity even despite their 50-55% Steppe ancestry. Let's subtract say 50% from England and Scotland beaker and 55% from Netherlands and you get their EEF half looking like...
    England: 0.2945
    Scotland: 0.2939
    Netherlands: 0.2990

    Germany_Blatterhohle_MN: 0.3143
    Last edited by Kale; 01-24-2021 at 06:07 AM.
    Collection of 14,000 d-stats: Hidden Content Part 2: Hidden Content Part 3: Hidden Content PM me for d-stats, qpadm, qpgraph, or f3-outgroup nmonte models.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Ertebølle in particular was one of the forager strongholds, typically most forager strongholds were close to the sea or big rivers, like Ertebølle, Lower Don and Yellow River people. They had the demographic strength and cultural practises which made them more resilient and allowed them to adopt Neolithic innovations on their own terms. There can be little doubt that Ertebølle contributed significantly to TRB and GAC.
    Absolutely in your opinion, the Neolithic GAC also has an important genetic input from hunters and gatherers (WHG) as in the example of the people (family members) from the mass grave of Koszyce in Poland (30% WHG and 70% EEF), with TRB even 40% - 50% of WHG. Or the Narva culture in the Baltic States that lasted until the Bronze Age! (70% WHG and 30% EHG)
    Alain Dad
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    German: 21.9%
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    Moldovan: 0.2%
    Italian_Northeast: 0.2%
    Other: 0.1%

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alain View Post
    Absolutely in your opinion, the Neolithic GAC also has an important genetic input from hunters and gatherers (WHG) as in the example of the people (family members) from the mass grave of Koszyce in Poland (30% WHG and 70% EEF), with TRB even 40% - 50% of WHG. Or the Narva culture in the Baltic States that lasted until the Bronze Age! (70% WHG and 30% EHG)
    Indeed. In this context the Tollensee valley samples come to mind. They are Late Bronze Age and some of them harbored very high levels of WHG ancestry IIRC. I wonder what could be the source of that level of HG.

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