What lead to the resurgence of WHG ancestry and Y-dna in Neolithic Europe?

[Andour]

Guys a quick question, I don't want to steer the conversation to be primarily about pigmentation but I was wondering if there is some general statement we can say about what happened between 6000 and 3500-3000 BCE in terms of pigmentation among the new populations in Europe.

Does the evidence indicate for 3500-3000 BCE populations that the ratio between light and dark features was close to their admixture ratios between WHG-ENG-ANE/EHG or was there already evident deviations from that(be it selection or randomness)?

I've already posted this elsewhere on the forum. It's not very recent, but it seems relevant here, and nothing indicates it should be seen as outdated.

[Andour]

Phenotypes continued. FWIW...

WHG




Motala HG

[Andour]

[Coldmountains]

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Very Interesting how this British Bell Beaker guy with R1b clustered with Sintashta R1a-Z93 on the other side of Europe. Actually closer to the Sintashta AVG than to Bell Beaker averages. His ancestors seem to have not really picked any kind of significant local ancestry west of the GAC/Steppe contact zone.

Distance to: Bell_Beaker_England:I6774
0.02519819 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.02568546 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.02644332 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.02673377 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.02747068 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.02785784 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
0.02948345 Corded_Ware_CZE
0.03016207 RUS_Poltavka_o
0.03029074 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
0.03058633 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03078310 CZE_EBA
0.03192269 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.03316728 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
0.03328701 NLD_BA
0.03341865 Corded_Ware_CHE
0.03479359 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
0.03508896 KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
0.03545558 KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA
0.03571371 Corded_Ware_POL
0.03591419 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
0.03648412 CHE_LN_steppe
0.03670225 UKR_MBA
0.03670821 IRL_BA
0.03697162 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03749809 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN

[homunculus]

Speaking of phenotypes, this cro-magnon reconstruction has a surprisingly modern North European look to him, regardless of pigmentation.

 

Even this early Iron Age Man from southern England has received a rather modern reconstruction, one could easily imagine him talking in a thick cockney or glaswegian accent.

 

[etrusco]

Very Interesting how this British Bell Beaker guy with R1b clustered with Sintashta R1a-Z93 on the other side of Europe. Actually closer to the Sintashta AVG than to Bell Beaker averages. His ancestors seem to have not really picked any kind of significant local ancestry west of the GAC/Steppe contact zone.

Distance to: Bell_Beaker_England:I6774
0.02519819 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.02568546 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.02644332 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.02673377 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.02747068 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.02785784 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
0.02948345 Corded_Ware_CZE
0.03016207 RUS_Poltavka_o
0.03029074 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
0.03058633 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03078310 CZE_EBA
0.03192269 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.03316728 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
0.03328701 NLD_BA
0.03341865 Corded_Ware_CHE
0.03479359 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
0.03508896 KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
0.03545558 KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA
0.03571371 Corded_Ware_POL
0.03591419 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
0.03648412 CHE_LN_steppe
0.03670225 UKR_MBA
0.03670821 IRL_BA
0.03697162 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03749809 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN

This is a possible indication that 90% and more of all the modern IE speakers derive from a source population definitively rooted in a MLBA steppe like population. I wonder if we will ever find the exact sub group of Yamnaya that was the source of all these folks.

[Finn]

Very Interesting how this British Bell Beaker guy with R1b clustered with Sintashta R1a-Z93 on the other side of Europe. Actually closer to the Sintashta AVG than to Bell Beaker averages. His ancestors seem to have not really picked any kind of significant local ancestry west of the GAC/Steppe contact zone.

Distance to: Bell_Beaker_England:I6774
0.02519819 RUS_Sintashta_MLBA
0.02568546 SWE_Battle_Axe
0.02644332 POL_Chlopice_Vesele_Culture
0.02673377 Bell_Beaker_NLD
0.02747068 KAZ_Maitan_MLBA_Alakul
0.02785784 KAZ_Kairan_MLBA
0.02948345 Corded_Ware_CZE
0.03016207 RUS_Poltavka_o
0.03029074 RUS_Fatyanovo_BA
0.03058633 Bell_Beaker_England
0.03078310 CZE_EBA
0.03192269 KAZ_Aktogai_MLBA
0.03316728 RUS_Srubnaya_MLBA
0.03328701 NLD_BA
0.03341865 Corded_Ware_CHE
0.03479359 Bell_Beaker_Scotland
0.03508896 KAZ_Lisakovskiy_MLBA_Alakul
0.03545558 KAZ_Solyanka_MLBA
0.03571371 Corded_Ware_POL
0.03591419 RUS_Petrovka_MLBA
0.03648412 CHE_LN_steppe
0.03670225 UKR_MBA
0.03670821 IRL_BA
0.03697162 Bell_Beaker_FRA
0.03749809 DEU_BenzigerodeHeimburg_LN

Just for fun I took this sample. And put it in vahaduo still the distance is quite big 0.05>.

This lowered when I introduce Blatterhöhle MN, Neolithic with quite high HG (60%). As I expected in the case of Finn mom even on the 0.030 level:


This lowered somewhat further when I also used LBK, Finn Dad almost catches up:




Nice to see some 'evidence' that after the Bell Beaker the 'grand mix' went on and that mom (relative higher in Blatterhöhle) and dad (higher in LBK) have slightly different ancestry.

[Olymp]

As a whole Sardinians (today) are rather dark eyed, with a minority of light and middle coloured eyes, and their dark eyes kind is rather the typical mediterranean one: dark brown, if not as blackish that southern Near-Eastern people; always the same play between received stereotypes and "revolutionary" stereotypes!
In past, EEF showed, if I read well, an heterogenous picture, with majority of dark eyes (or at least of not-light eyes, because all the possible mutated loci have not been studied); and my experience says: where you find predicted dark and light eyes mixed (according to the mendelian dominance rule: no mix) in fact you find ALWAYS between hues, whatever the respective proportions. And at the contrary NEVER middle hues beyond 50/55%. So the picture drawn to us concerning ancient pops seems to me simplification.
The Sardinians, as said by someones, are not totally EEF: a strong enough remnant of WHG + some slight Steppic imput.

You don't know what sardinians look like. It's a simplistic view. This is not correct about "if not as blackish that southern near eastern people", it's a non-sens (Sardinians are genetically and phenotypically more europeans that any Near-Eastern people, it's a fact).

Whatever, we don't talk about pseudo-anthro thing here, but WHG ancestry and Y-DNA.

[kolompar]

The Wartberg samples are in the Global25 now. They are most similar to the other western farmers but consistently 30-40% WHG. Are they the source of the Atlantic cultures?

Interestingly they are from around the same region as these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talheim_Death_Pit
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herxhe...ological_site)

Everyone thought these were intra-farmer violence and evidence that they weren't peaceful. But it all makes sense now. It was the WHGs. It was the WHGs all along.

[Olymp]

My mother is C;C on this (and my father G;G, i'm C;G)



According a guy:
On WHG: "yes they all had cc on rs16891982"

Neolithic: "they vary mostly CG but many had CC and GG also"

So, her C;C "Could be related to WHG but also could be just something from being from EEF or even Yamnaya - even these had CC sometimes on rs16891982"

But she is light beige.

Also Japanese don't have this "light skin color" related genes, but their skin color are not "davidian-like"... I guess that's also why geneticists have a hard time deciding on WHG skin color and even skin tone shade (because "dark" encompasses a lot of shade)?