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Thread: MahaBharatha

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by DMXX View Post
    I have no idea as to the proposed etymologies of the Kshathriya caste, but the name bears a very clear resemblance with the Old Avestan word xshathra, which (depending on the context) means "ruler", "dominion" or "power".
    Ultimately I think from land - khet (Sanskrit kshetra).

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Ultimately I think from land - khet (Sanskrit kshetra).
    That may again only mean battle field.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    That may again only mean battle field.
    Essentially, land/field and landholder.
    Similarly, we have vis - house, and vaishya - householder (cf. Sanskrit visah "house," vit "dwelling, house, settlement;" Avestan vis "house, village, clan;" Old Persian vitham "house, royal house;" Greek oikos "house;" Latin villa "country house, farm," vicus "village, group of houses;" Lithuanian viešpats "master of the house;" Old Church Slavonic visi "village;" Gothic weihs "village." https://www.etymonline.com/word/*weik-)
    Last edited by parasar; 05-06-2021 at 10:41 PM.

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  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Essentially, land/field and landholder.
    Similarly, we have vis - house, and vaishya - householder (cf. Sanskrit visah "house," vit "dwelling, house, settlement;" Avestan vis "house, village, clan;" Old Persian vitham "house, royal house;" Greek oikos "house;" Latin villa "country house, farm," vicus "village, group of houses;" Lithuanian viešpats "master of the house;" Old Church Slavonic visi "village;" Gothic weihs "village." https://www.etymonline.com/word/*weik-)
    As DMXX pointed out, and I agree with him, there is an obvious resemblance to the Old Avastan xshathra.
    However, I have also come across a view that the caste system was a post-vedic development based on the premise that Kshathriya or names for other castes were not present in the earliest Vedic texts?
    How accurate is this argument given we know that steppe cultures that have been associated with Indo-Aryans had a militarized culture along with the presence of priests who carried out ritual sacrifice etc?
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    As DMXX pointed out, and I agree with him, there is an obvious resemblance to the Old Avastan xshathra.
    However, I have also come across a view that the caste system was a post-vedic development based on the premise that Kshathriya or names for other castes were not present in the earliest Vedic texts?
    How accurate is this argument given we know that steppe cultures that have been associated with Indo-Aryans had a militarized culture along with the presence of priests who carried out ritual sacrifice etc?
    Not only clear resemblance, I would posit that they are the essentially the same with only a dialectical difference.
    In Sanskrit we have the form Kshatra. क्षत्र https://www.google.com/books/edition...hatra&pg=PA264

    I think of the caste system as more of an organic development from the hunter gatherer (ludda, shudra) stage, to village life and village heads (vis, vispati), to large land holdings (kshetra, kshatra). All of these stages likely had shamans/priests amongst them, until the Brahmans anointed themselves as a hereditary priesthood. The professions/artisans castes grew in complexity to become something of the sort that has come down to the present.

    Brahman is a late Rg Vedic term, but we do see forms hotr, atharvan, etc., earlier. Book X of the Rg and the Gathas look to be from a similar time-frame. Unfortunately, I have little to no knowledge of the early steppe cultures, but based on what we know of historical steppe cultures, I do think there was a significant impact from the steppe on the Indo-Iranians and vice versa. What we think of as Indo-Iranian now is IMO Rg Vedic/Gathic substrate with a massive steppe imprint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    That may again only mean battle field.

    Rig Ved 10:32.7

    akṣetravit kṣetravidaṃ hyaprāṭ sa praitikṣetravidānuśiṣṭaḥ |
    etad vai bhadramanuśāsanosyotasrutiṃ vindatya˝jasīnām ||

    The stranger asks the way of him who knows it: taught by the skilful guide he travels onward.
    This is, in truth, the blessing of instruction: he finds the path that leads directly forward.

    This is a reference to land, and to one from the land /outside the land.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    Rig Ved 10:32.7

    akṣetravit kṣetravidaṃ hyaprāṭ sa praitikṣetravidānuśiṣṭaḥ |
    etad vai bhadramanuśāsanosyotasrutiṃ vindatya˝jasīnām ||

    The stranger asks the way of him who knows it: taught by the skilful guide he travels onward.
    This is, in truth, the blessing of instruction: he finds the path that leads directly forward.

    This is a reference to land, and to one from the land /outside the land.
    I have no education in these fields but try to make sense of what others say. Kshatriya certainly have direct relationship to the battlefield while the pastures may belong to the shepherds and agriculture land to farmers.

  12. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    I have no education in these fields but try to make sense of what others say. Kshatriya certainly have direct relationship to the battlefield while the pastures may belong to the shepherds and agriculture land to farmers.
    The meaning here is likely land, or realm. kshetravit is one with the knowledge of the area, and akshetravit is the one without the knowledge of the area. This was likely derived from the same root as the Avesta Xsatra, realm or dominion. The word for War in the Vedic language was Yuddh, which has survived in the Sanskrit language.

    Kshetra definitely had association with Land, lordship over it and possibly some rudimentary kind of territorial organisation of the land.

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  14. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    Not only clear resemblance, I would posit that they are the essentially the same with only a dialectical difference.
    In Sanskrit we have the form Kshatra. क्षत्र https://www.google.com/books/edition...hatra&pg=PA264

    I think of the caste system as more of an organic development from the hunter gatherer (ludda, shudra) stage, to village life and village heads (vis, vispati), to large land holdings (kshetra, kshatra). All of these stages likely had shamans/priests amongst them, until the Brahmans anointed themselves as a hereditary priesthood. The professions/artisans castes grew in complexity to become something of the sort that has come down to the present.

    Brahman is a late Rg Vedic term, but we do see forms hotr, atharvan, etc., earlier. Book X of the Rg and the Gathas look to be from a similar time-frame. Unfortunately, I have little to no knowledge of the early steppe cultures, but based on what we know of historical steppe cultures, I do think there was a significant impact from the steppe on the Indo-Iranians and vice versa. What we think of as Indo-Iranian now is IMO Rg Vedic/Gathic substrate with a massive steppe imprint.
    Can you clarify this Parasar, because if anything , the Steppe extending from the Urals into the IAMC is dominated a plethora of various IIr groups to the extent they embody the Steppe. To me the standardization of terms and rituals in Vedic and early Avestan is indicative of a major cultural shift and a new polity, one dominated by an IIr speaking elite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    isn't it far beyond the Ganges valley where the post Vedic developments take place?
    Quote Originally Posted by desi View Post
    whereas the post-Vedic culture and texts were situated in the Gangetic heartland, which was far removed from that sphere of influence and whether the chronology matches up either.
    What are the evidence that it was situated in Ganges,


    Let's include major regions of influence and where likely they were situated.

    Kuru
    Panchala (Northern/Southern)
    Sapta Sindhu
    Brahmavarta
    Aryavarta


    Kuru - Bactria and Brahmavarta - Bactria/Sogdiana

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post771312


    Sapta Sindhu - Eastern Afghanistan

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post755498


    Panchala(Southern) - Punjab?

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....l=1#post752665


    Panchala( Northern) - Aratta?

    Applying the same concept as for Panchala (Southern) ( Panj - 5 rivers ) and neighbor and east to Kuru.




    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panj_(...Panj_river.png


    Aryavarta definition was not constant.

    https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/aryavarta

    kushans adopted Bactrian as Arya language

    The Bactrian Rabatak inscription (discovered in 1993 and deciphered in 2000) records that the Kushan king Kanishka (c. 127 AD)[8][9] discarded Greek ("Ionian") as the language of administration and adopted Bactrian ("Arya language").
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bactrian_language


    Maybe Aryavarta was Haryana/West UP exclusively during Guptas based on Allahabad Pillar Inscription. Here it is mentioned as forest regions, not sure it was exclusively Haryana/West UP either


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allahabad_Pillar

    (Line 21) (Who) is great through the extraordinary valour, namely, the forcible extermination of many kings of Āryāvarta such as Rudradēva, Matila, Nāgadatta, Chandravarman, Gaṇapatināga, Nāgasēna, Āchyuta-Nandin and Balavarman; who has made all the kings of the forest regions to become his servants.
    or really large region

    Āryāvarta (आर्यावर्त).—m. the holy land, extending from the eastern to the western sea, and bounded on the north and south by the Himālaya and Vindhya mountains, [Mānavadharmaśāstra] 2, 22.
    If Vindhya mountains were same as known today and eastern and western sea as Arabian Sea and Bay of Bengal.
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 05-15-2021 at 05:01 PM.

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