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Thread: Greek Discussion Thread

  1. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by David at Eurogenes
    Greeks do have Cypriot-like ancestry, it's just that it's not necessarily from Cyprus.

    This is obvious by looking at modern Greek DNA vs Mycenaean DNA.

    But it'll also be shown with new samples from Classical Greece, some of which actually cluster with Cypriots and Anatolians.
    A nice tease!
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  3. #722
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    Well, i hope that it wasn't a serious question !? Do you really think that the Haplogroups of the Greek people (inhabitants that lived in today Greek territory) during e.g. the XII and the XVI centuries were identical !? Do you really think that the Demographic changes are not reflected in the variety and frequencies of Haplogroups !? Do you really think that every person with the Greek flag in yfull is a direct descendant of the ancient Greeks ..!? Genetics without History its nonsensical.

  4. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exercitus View Post
    Well, i hope that it wasn't a serious question !? Do you really think that the Haplogroups of the Greek people (inhabitants that lived in today Greek territory) during e.g. the XII and the XVI centuries were identical !? Do you really think that the Demographic changes are not reflected in the variety and frequencies of Haplogroups !? Do you really think that every person with the Greek flag in yfull is a direct descendant of the ancient Greeks ..!? Genetics without History its nonsensical.
    We are aware that I2a-Din is associated with the Slavic Medieval incursions. I am not sure what else we can deduct from your post.
    dosas: 56.25% Greek_Macedonia + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 1.769
    wife: 50% English + 50% Irish @ 1.837
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    kid2: 56.25% English_Cornwall + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.866

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  6. #724
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exercitus View Post
    Well, i hope that it wasn't a serious question !? Do you really think that the Haplogroups of the Greek people (inhabitants that lived in today Greek territory) during e.g. the XII and the XVI centuries were identical !? Do you really think that the Demographic changes are not reflected in the variety and frequencies of Haplogroups !? Do you really think that every person with the Greek flag in yfull is a direct descendant of the ancient Greeks ..!? Genetics without History its nonsensical.
    Not,without ancient DNA.Only J2a IMO can be taken serious when it comes to Greek yDNA...but still the subclades are not well known.

  7. #725
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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    We are aware that I2a-Din is associated with the Slavic Medieval incursions. I am not sure what else we can deduct from your post.
    I'm pretty sure he wanted to make a correlation of the presence of this subclade in Greece with the Albanians looking at his first link although this subclade is certainly not the one for that purpose. You've got much more 'Albanian' looking subclades such as R-Z2705 etc. if you want to track the Albanian presence in Greece. Not to mention that this subclade is only found in South Albania so far so not across all the Albanian ethnic space and furthermore it's much less diverse and frequent there than in Greece.

    If I have to pick a region, then Macedonia would be on first place in diversity for I-Y18331. I-A2512*(Kavala), I-Y66192*(North Macedonia), I-Y158878(Almopia/Moglena). So you have two completely different subclades downstream of I-Y18331 found in Macedonia, one I-Y18331* in Zakyntos and one I-Y18331* in South Albania.

    There is still a lot of mystery surrounding this particular subclade and whether it was in the Balkans prior to the Slavs or whether it arrived with some particular Slavic tribe. The TMRCA of this clade and it's diversity in the South Balkans makes me believe it was already in the South Balkans prior to the Slavic migrations, probably settling and starting it's expansion first from the region of Macedonia. The sole Jewish clade that has MRCA with the Balkaners is 2100 ybp according to YFULL which also gives credence to the idea that it was already in the Balkans prior the Slavs. Although I believe YFULL underestimates the TMRCA and it's probably a bit older.

    I found this article by a certain Greek author named Pandelis Nigdelis about the population of Roman Macedonia at the eve of the Roman occupation:
    2.1. The population of Macedonia before the Roman occupation
    It was natural that the population of a region with the geopolitical position and the history
    of Macedonia would lack the racial homogeneity of the lands of southern Greece.
    The presence of non-Greek populations in Macedonia before and after the Roman conquest
    is attested in a very few instances by ancient writers. Thus, Hecataeus tells us that,
    on the Thermaic Gulf, Chalastra was inhabited by Thracians and Therme had a mixed
    population (Greek and Thracian); while Polybius speaks of Thracians settling in the
    coastal cities of the kingdom in 183 BC and the consequent movement of their Macedonian
    inhabitants into parts of Paeonia. Livy (based on Polybius) tells us that when
    Macedonia was occupied there were in Bottiaia “a large number of Galatians and Illyrians,
    hard-working peasants”: colonists, that is, who had been transplanted there by
    Philip V to renew the population of the area (or, according to another view, prisoners of
    war from the campaigns conducted against these peoples by the Macedonian kings, perhaps
    working royal estates) 9
    .
    I'm not sure but I believe that under "Galatians" the author thinks probably about the Gauls that invaded Greece in the third century BCE and not the actual Galatians from Central Anatolia. It certainly is very interesting and tempting to make connection of I-Y18331 in Greece with some of the people who came from the north such as the Gauls.
    Distance to: Aspar_scaled
    0.01995435 35.00% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av2 + 65.00% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02156914 40.60% HUN_Avar_Szolad:Av1 + 59.40% ITA_Rome_MA:RMPR65
    0.02223177 55.20% Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2:I8215 + 44.80% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19
    0.02300447 61.80% BGR_IA:I5769 + 38.20% UKR_Chernyakhiv_Legedzine:MJ19

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  9. #726
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    First of all Apsar my intention wasn't to correlate the presence of this subclade (I-Y18331) in Greece with the Albanians, i just wanted to make things clear concerning the unreliability\relativity of the modern (post XIX century) ethnic labeling toward the genuine Genetic data's !! We know perfectly well that, for example, a modern Montenegrin, Sandjakli, south Serbian etc statistically speaking, has a much more highter probability to have a genetic (Y chromosome) affinity with the modern Albanian and Balkan Vlachs because of the 'paleo-balkan' typical Haplogroups !! Greece, North Macedonia, Kosovo, Montenegro during the XII-XVI centuries had experienced great demographic-social changes, because of the medieval Albanian 'demographic boom', the Ottoman Defters of the XV & XVI centuries are a concret evidence of such phenomena!!

    No one is putting in discussion the fact that I-Y3120 is a typical eastern-central European Haplogroup, also that is principally correlated with the Slavic peoples, and that the I-Y18331 bearers were a pre-slavic (TMRCA 2100 ybp) input into the Balkans! But it seems to me quite arbitrary to attribute the I-Y18331 to 'ancient Greeks' or 'ancient "Macedonians"! Before the Albanian - Gjirokastra - I-Y18331*, the Polish - Zielinski - I-Y18331*, i have forewarned\'predicted' a Albanian with this precise Haplogroup, and the reasons are quite simple: Historical Facts, the Greek - Zakynthos - I-Y18331* in Yfull is actually the descendant of an Albanian Stradiotti of the beginning of the XVI century, few Historical Facts:

    - "Stratia" Zakynthos year 1539, the list of the Albanian Stradiotti that came in Zakynthos - Ξένος - :

    https://greeksurnames.blogspot.com/2..._2904.html?m=1

    - The Early Ottoman Peloponnese: A Study in the Light of an Annotated Editio Princeps of the TT10-1/14662 Ottoman Taxation Cadastre (ca. 1460-1463):

    If we check the part of Editio Princeps of 1/14662 we will find some interesant Xeno people:
    1 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Melitena, page 471 - Thoma Xeno, we find also Gon(Gjon) Asteri !!
    2 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Rovyata, page 486 - Domenika Xeno & Mesara Xeno, both with typical Albanian onomastic, we find also Gin(Gjin) Pelikanos !!
    3 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Gjerbes\Gerbes, page 492 - Trusha Xeno, with typical Albanian onomastic, we find also Jorgji Haraktino !!
    4 - In the Albanian-Arnavudan village Ranbiyaka, page 494 - Perino Xeno, we find also Gon(Gjon) Ranbiyaka!!
    etc.

    - From page 10-13 here in this article:

    http://digital.lib.auth.gr/record/27....pdf?version=1

    , of the year 1851 you have the names-surnames-village of the inhabitans of Zakynthos which were allowed to carry guns, you will notice among the Villages such:
    -Toponymy:
    Βελούσι(Belushi) - Κυψέλη, Κουκέσι(Kukeshi)- Καλλιθέα, Βουγιατο(Bujat), Μπούρα(Burra) -Γερακαριου, Παληοκάντουνον(PalioKatund)-Ροΐδιον, Φλόκα(Floka), Μουζακα(Muzaka)... some of whom doesnt exist anymore they were simply "wiped out" !!
    - Surnames\Patronomy:
    Bishtbardhi, Bishtqeni, Muzaki, Ziguri, Plesha, Shkurti, Llapa, Bethulka, Kokla, Shurbi, Floka, Shtruza, Bubuka, Peta, Gushko, Rrushi, Gramsha, Suli, Renesi, Mengulla, Griva, Lunxhi, Hekali, Nenga, Trusha, Bozhiki, Likuresi, Kuci, Maneshi, Gllava, Zguri, Kapandriti, Zhiva, Grekuqi, Lopesi, Losha, Vrioni, Trimi, Mileshi, Brati.... Xeno... etc

    Those are the descendants of the Albanian(Arvanites) Stradiotti that came massively in Zakynthos during the XIV-XV centuries !!

    Logical conclusion: Xeno Clan from Louchi, Zakynthos has Albanian roots!!

  10. #727
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    Also other Albanian Xeno:

    1- Trimi Xenos from village Rolo (name Trimi-Trimas -> Braveheart in Albanian!)

    https://i.imgur.com/VkIRpKz.jpg

    2- Filip Xenos in the Albanian-Arnavudan village Topolova !!

    https://i.imgur.com/ccBUgkK.jpg

    I might add also this, I-A2512* https://yfull.com/live/tree/I-A2512*/:

    https://i.imgur.com/QiQ0CCd.jpg

    Those Villages around where inhabited by Albanian Orthodox people during the XV-XVII centuries, i guess that i will wait for new results !!

  11. #728
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    Judging by the tone of your posts, it seems that you think you are making some sort of grande statement/revelation that is supposed to awe us, but you really picked the wrong crowd for this.

    This group is very familiar with the history of both Albanophones and Slavophones in the country.
    dosas: 56.25% Greek_Macedonia + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 1.769
    wife: 50% English + 50% Irish @ 1.837
    kid1: 56.25% English + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.817
    kid2: 56.25% English_Cornwall + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.866

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  13. #729
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    Yeah, i noticed how familiar you are with the history of Albanophones and Slavophones in your country!!!
    Although i think that is better to know, even the 'uncomfortable truths' sometime!! Indeed this is the great advantage of Genetics, shedding more light into our genetic past, meanwhile opposing the stereotypes, and the groundless Nationalistic ideas !! Personally i am not a descendant (Y chromosome) of the 'paleo-balkan' lines!

  14. #730
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exercitus View Post
    Yeah, i noticed how familiar you are with the history of Albanophones and Slavophones in your country!!!
    Although i think that is better to know, even the 'uncomfortable truths' sometime!! Indeed this is the great advantage of Genetics, shedding more light into our genetic past, meanwhile opposing the stereotypes, and the groundless Nationalistic ideas !! Personally i am not a descendant (Y chromosome) of the 'paleo-balkan' lines!
    Are you trolling?

    Yes, its very good to escape from nationalist narratives. You should therefore also accept that Albanians have nothing to do genetically or culturally with the Illyrian population of Southern Albania.

    Ever wonder why the highest diversity of paleoBalkan lineages exists only in Northern Albania, above the Jireček line?
    distance: 0.01753688
    Ancient Greece/Balkans: 48.2
    Early Slavic: 24.6
    RUS_Maykop_Novosvobodnaya: 14.8
    Levant_Megiddo_IA: 9.6
    MAR_Taforalt: 1
    CHN_Chuanyun_Historic: 1.2
    Yoruba: 0.6

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