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Thread: Greek Discussion Thread

  1. #1041
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ylang-Ylang View Post
    I am not surprised in a sense of disbelieve. It actually makes sense.
    Also I am quite newbie with this G25 stuff so I might look easily amazed.

    I am amazed as these ‘Iberian’ samples are mostly matching the several ancient samples of Greece from the neolithic era up to the Bronze Age. With exception of a small IA Bulgarian component in the admix which makes sense too.
    It even picks neolithic Peloponnese farmers over neolithic Barcin farmers and other early European farmers. They were true Greeks of the time.
    It shows the same way with my Greek side, Peloponnese farmers over Barcin.

    It seems there is some confusion about ‘Iberian’ samples on the internet.
    But a few do not always imagine these ancient Iberian samples were foreigners/newcoming people were from Greek origins.
    Yes, these are genetically Mycenaean-like Greeks who established a colony in Iberia. They show continuity with the older samples we have. When Anatolian BA admixture became common in Greeks is not known, but these individuals don't have it.

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     Ylang-Ylang (10-10-2021)

  3. #1042
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Coming back to the Greek heritage, I came across this old study on Phocean Greeks on Eupedia:


    https://www.eupedia.com/forum/thread...l=1#post632432

    This proves, at least, that E-V13 was spread to the Eastern Anatolian coast. Subclades would be interesting for Greeks from those regions. For North Western Anatolia they found still 6 % E-V13.

    Also interesting that even at their estimate, less than 1/5 of the E-V13 in the Provence can be attributed to the Greek colonisation, which would leave a majority coming from other sources, possibly with the Hallstatt culture, Ligurians and Celts.
    I wouldn't have expected to find my rare haplogroup represented here. Thanks for that

  4. #1043
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ylang-Ylang View Post
    I wonder if this is from Syrians from Roman expansions, or earlier from Classical Greek era..
    Did they bring the Phoenician alphabet?
    There's not any evidence that the adoption of the Phoenician alphabet was accompanied by migration. At this point we assume there was population movement from Anatolia to Greece in the Bronze Age (that brought Iran_N and CHG admixture to BA Greeks) and later in the Hellenistic and Roman periods, but not at the time frame they adopted the alphabet.

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  6. #1044
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    There's not any evidence that the adoption of the Phoenician alphabet was accompanied by migration. At this point we assume there was population movement from Anatolia to Greece in the Bronze Age (that brought Iran_N and CHG admixture to BA Greeks) and later in the Hellenistic and Roman periods, but not at the time frame they adopted the alphabet.
    The Levant component seemed to have increased on the mainland and in the Islands at some point and I wonder when exactly, and how much this decreased after the Slavic migrations into Greece.
    It looks somehow straight from the coastal Levant to me, not just simply from BA Anatolia.
    The Levant component in mainland Peloponnese looks higher anyway than BA Greeks had.
    I think there is at least some mixed migration story into the Peloponnese at the arrival of the Phoenician alphabet.
    Maybe some Greeks returned from the East with mixed Levant children. There should had been some contact with the Semitic/Levant world.
    If Central Italy was obviously affected by Eastern Med migration in the Roman Imperial Era, I see no reason why there shouldn’t had been migrations to Greece from the Eastern Med Romans as they had to have reached Greece before arrived in Roman Era Italy.
    These type of migrations mat had happened before the Roman periods from Anatolia as well some from the coastal Levant. The Levant coast isn’t that far away from Greece.
    Last edited by Ylang-Ylang; 10-12-2021 at 10:23 AM.

  7. #1045
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ylang-Ylang View Post
    The Levant component seemed to have increased on the mainland and in the Islands at some point and I wonder when exactly, and how much this decreased after the Slavic migrations into Greece.
    It looks somehow straight from the coastal Levant to me, not just simply from BA Anatolia.
    The Levant component in mainland Peloponnese looks higher anyway than BA Greeks had.
    I think there is at least some mixed migration story into the Peloponnese at the arrival of the Phoenician alphabet.
    Maybe some Greeks returned from the East with mixed Levant children. There should had been some contact with the Semitic/Levant world.
    If Central Italy was obviously affected by Eastern Med migration in the Roman Imperial Era, I see no reason why there shouldn’t had been migrations to Greece from the Eastern Med Romans as they had to have reached Greece before arrived in Roman Era Italy.
    These type of migrations mat had happened before the Roman periods from Anatolia as well some from the coastal Levant. The Levant coast isn’t that far away from Greece.
    The Greeks adopted the alphabet around ~800 BC. I don't see a reason to assume it was accompanied by migration, Greeks borrowed a lot of stuff from the Middle Eastern civilisations because indeed there was contact with them. Yes, there's also a Levant component in moderns but it doesn't appear before the Hellenistic, Roman and possibly Byzantine periods, based on what we know about Myceneans and Classical Greeks. Maybe we discover new things from the upcoming papers, we shall see.

  8. #1046
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ylang-Ylang View Post
    The Levant component seemed to have increased on the mainland and in the Islands at some point and I wonder when exactly, and how much this decreased after the Slavic migrations into Greece.
    It looks somehow straight from the coastal Levant to me, not just simply from BA Anatolia.
    The Levant component in mainland Peloponnese looks higher anyway than BA Greeks had.
    I think there is at least some mixed migration story into the Peloponnese at the arrival of the Phoenician alphabet.
    Maybe some Greeks returned from the East with mixed Levant children. There should had been some contact with the Semitic/Levant world.
    If Central Italy was obviously affected by Eastern Med migration in the Roman Imperial Era, I see no reason why there shouldn’t had been migrations to Greece from the Eastern Med Romans as they had to have reached Greece before arrived in Roman Era Italy.
    These type of migrations mat had happened before the Roman periods from Anatolia as well some from the coastal Levant. The Levant coast isn’t that far away from Greece.
    Most of the Peloponnese is uninhabitable and my guess is that there were groups living in isolated regions with minimal outward or inward movement. Those known cities like Sparta, Messene, Argos, Corinth were pretty self contained and doubtful that average citizens would have travelled very far unless there was an exodus due to famine, etc. What your describing may have happened on a larger scale in Athens or even Corinth but just doesn’t make sense in the rough and rugged Peloponnese. As far as folks resettling in the Peloponnese to me seems unlikely unless we’re talking about a place like Corinth which is situated nearer to the Aegean. Btw where is that Peloponnese sample from?
    Last edited by TonyC; 10-12-2021 at 02:32 PM.
    88.0 Greek_Peloponnese + 12.0 Swiss_French Distance: 1.4582% / 0.01458192 | R2P

  9. #1047
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    About E-V13, have you noticed how Greek Macedonians have higher R1a and I2a than E-V13 while Peloponnese has more E-V13? If this halpogroup was brought essentially by Slavs this would not happen.

  10. #1048
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yupi View Post
    About E-V13, have you noticed how Greek Macedonians have higher R1a and I2a than E-V13 while Peloponnese has more E-V13? If this halpogroup was brought essentially by Slavs this would not happen.
    Ok I'll bite. What's your point? I don't think anyone's arguing that Slavs were primarily E-V13.

  11. #1049
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yupi View Post
    About E-V13, have you noticed how Greek Macedonians have higher R1a and I2a than E-V13 while Peloponnese has more E-V13? If this halpogroup was brought essentially by Slavs this would not happen.
    What's the source supporting your claim about this?
    Target: Aspar_scaled
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  12. #1050
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    Quote Originally Posted by peloponnesian View Post
    Ok I'll bite. What's your point? I don't think anyone's arguing that Slavs were primarily E-V13.
    It is widely spread in mainland Greece. If it was not present in ancient Greece, Slavs are the only candidates because Arvanites and Vlachs were strictly limited to some regions.

    My hypothesis is that the bulk of it is of Thracian and Northern Ancient Greek origin.

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