Greek Discussion Thread

[Johnny ola]

First, we need more samples from late antiquity Balkans, including Greek Macedonia, Epirus, Moesians and Illyrians. This will give us a good idea of the preinvasion genetic landscape. As I mentioned in another post, we would be able to distinguish between the ancestry of slavic admixed individuals in Greece. This is due to the fact that the palaeoBalkan component of the admixed Slavs is not the same with that of preinvasion Greeks, but more similar to North-western Balkans. You can read about this here:https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....kans-and-Italy

You can see this in the attached image. The "Serbian" component is nearly absent from Greek islanders, but peaks in areas affected by the Slavic migrations. David told me that this is a reasonable model, although he has his reservations about the Imperial Roman sample being representative of preinvasion Greeks.

Attachment 41533

Modern Mainalnd Greeks are a combination of 'Hun Avar Slozad' like people and Greco-Anatolians, With Some samples require Even Some Levantine admixture. If you remove The Slavic/Balkanic admixture they coming between Empurie2 and BA Anatolian like Kaman Kaheolyk etc. But Some of them might need Some Levant IA to model them. Greek islanders on The other hand are less Slavic, but definetly more West Asian admixed.. and besides their Anatolian BA ancestry, that covers most of their autosomal DNA they got a really high levant input.

With a few Words. To model modern Greeks you will need refrences from Clasical Greeks(Empuries 2),something related to modern Slavs or Balts-Slavs(Hun Avar Slozad av1-2) and BA-IA(Anatolian) plus someting from The Levant. YOU can use Also Some balkanic refrences but using The refrences like 'Serbian' might be more accurate to estimate Slavic and Paleobalkan admixture together. You can Also use Cappadocian/Central Cappadocian Greek refrences to estimate The west Asian/Anatolian like admixture in Greeks. Cappadocians are a good example of BA/IA Anatolians.

[trdbr1234]

Modern Mainalnd Greeks are a combination of 'Hun Avar Slozad' like people and Greco-Anatolians, With Some samples require Even Some Levantine admixture. If you remove The Slavic/Balkanic admixture they coming between Empurie2 and BA Anatolian like Kaman Kaheolyk etc. But Some of them might need Some Levant IA to model them. Greek islanders on The other hand are less Slavic, but definetly more West Asian admixed.. and besides their Anatolian BA ancestry, that covers most of their autosomal DNA they got a really high levant input.

With a few Words. To model modern Greeks you will need refrences from Clasical Greeks(Empuries 2),something related to modern Slavs or Balts-Slavs(Hun Avar Slozad av1-2) and BA-IA(Anatolian) plus someting from The Levant. YOU can use Also Some balkanic refrences but using The refrences like 'Serbian' might be more accurate to estimate Slavic and Paleobalkan admixture together. You can Also use Cappadocian/Central Cappadocian Greek refrences to estimate The west Asian/Anatolian like admixture in Greeks. Cappadocians are a good example of BA/IA Anatolians.

How do Cappadocians compare to Armenians? I ask because there are toponyms and historical evidence of some Armenian migration to places like Crete.

[Johnny ola]

How do Cappadocians compare to Armenians? I ask because there are toponyms and historical evidence of some Armenian migration to places like Crete.

Eastern Cappadocians are closer to Pontic Greeks and Armenians while western Cappadocians are closer to Greek islanders(inclunding Crete) and Cyprus. As For Cretans they devire much of their ancestry from a population similar to BA Anatolians but with more Greek and Levantine admixture. Also Crete has a Slavic infleunece that Cappadocian Greeks lack.

[XXD]

Modern Mainalnd Greeks are a combination of 'Hun Avar Slozad' like people and Greco-Anatolians, With Some samples require Even Some Levantine admixture. If you remove The Slavic/Balkanic admixture they coming between Empurie2 and BA Anatolian like Kaman Kaheolyk etc. But Some of them might need Some Levant IA to model them. Greek islanders on The other hand are less Slavic, but definetly more West Asian admixed.. and besides their Anatolian BA ancestry, that covers most of their autosomal DNA they got a really high levant input.

With a few Words. To model modern Greeks you will need refrences from Clasical Greeks(Empuries 2),something related to modern Slavs or Balts-Slavs(Hun Avar Slozad av1-2) and BA-IA(Anatolian) plus someting from The Levant. YOU can use Also Some balkanic refrences but using The refrences like 'Serbian' might be more accurate to estimate Slavic and Paleobalkan admixture together. You can Also use Cappadocian/Central Cappadocian Greek refrences to estimate The west Asian/Anatolian like admixture in Greeks. Cappadocians are a good example of BA/IA Anatolians.

I cannot say I completely agree with that. Since we anticipate that the Slavs who came to Greece were already like Serbians (including north-western Paleobalkan admixture, NOT Greek one), then the latter population might be a better proxy than Avar Szolad, whose closest matches with his contemporary samples are Scythians, another Iranian tribe, NOT Slavs.

Also, using early Slavs (Czechia) won't do, as it does not estimate the Paleobalkan admixture that the Slavs who invaded Greece brought with them.

We are discussing about this on the other post I attached.

[Sorcelow]

Here is a pca of my me and my family members compared to other Peloponnesians/mainland Greeks

Seems like my sister and I occupy the space that is transitionary between the Peloponnese and Macedonia, whereas the mother is firmly within the Peloponnesian cluster. Even though there is nothing particularly shocking about where my sister and I plot, I suspect that this inter-familiar diversity can be explained by the different subregions of the Peloponnese that my parents are from. More specifically, my father's village is close to the Arcadian/Messinian border, and is perched up high on the slopes of the Taygetus. The Melingoi inhabited the other side of the mountain up until the 15th century. On the other hand, my mother's village is located further south, approaching outer Mani and bordering the "Bardounochoria". Next step is for me to test my father to see how he compares.

[xripkan]

Here is a pca of my me and my family members compared to other Peloponnesians/mainland Greeks

Seems like my sister and I occupy the space that is transitionary between the Peloponnese and Macedonia, whereas the mother is firmly within the Peloponnesian cluster. Even though there is nothing particularly shocking about where my sister and I plot, I suspect that this inter-familiar diversity can be explained by the different subregions of the Peloponnese that my parents are from. More specifically, my father's village is close to the Arcadian/Messinian border, and is perched up high on the slopes of the Taygetus. The Melingoi inhabited the other side of the mountain up until the 15th century. On the other hand, my mother's village is located further south, approaching outer Mani and bordering the "Bardounochoria". Next step is for me to test my father to see how he compares.

Could you post your mother's closest modern populations?

[Sorcelow]

Could you post your mother's closest modern populations?

[1,] "Greek_Thessaly" "0.0356"
[2,] "Greek_Peloponnese (N=27)" "0.0357"
[3,] "Italian_Molise" "0.0389"
[4,] "Italian_Marche" "0.039"
[5,] "Greek_Macedonia (N=32)" "0.0395"
[6,] "Italian_Apulia" "0.0397"
[7,] "Italian_Abruzzo" "0.041"
[8,] "Italian_Basilicata" "0.0425"
[9,] "Greek_Izmir" "0.0427"
[10,] "Albanian (N=16)" "0.0429"

[Johnny ola]

I cannot say I completely agree with that. Since we anticipate that the Slavs who came to Greece were already like Serbians (including north-western Paleobalkan admixture, NOT Greek one), then the latter population might be a better proxy than Avar Szolad, whose closest matches with his contemporary samples are Scythians, another Iranian tribe, NOT Slavs.

Also, using early Slavs (Czechia) won't do, as it does not estimate the Paleobalkan admixture that the Slavs who invaded Greece brought with them.

We are discussing about this on the other post I attached.

I told You that You can use The Serb like refence. But using hun avar Slozad You will estimate better The northern input in Greek mainland. Serbs have high Anatolian N genes and will eat Empuries and BA Anatolian like admixture. We need samples from medieval Balkans to model Greeks and sadly The only we have are The samples from Slozad, Witch Btw are pretty fine to estimate The northern element in Greece and balkans in general.

[Michalis Moriopoulos]

On the other hand, my mother's village is located further south, approaching outer Mani and bordering the "Bardounochoria". Next step is for me to test my father to see how he compares.

I look forward to seeing his results. I was wondering why you were so shifted toward the northern end of mainland Greek variation. We only have those three Laconian samples to work with, but you even fall on the extreme end of the Arcadian samples. So does Tony C, for that matter. I wonder if there will be some Peloponnesians who cluster even more northerly. Maybe your father, for instance? There's also those two outliers over by the Sicilians, one Laconian and one Arcadian. I'd be very curious to know more about those individuals. If they are recent islander descendants, it's weird they would cluster near the Maltese and not the Cretans. So assuming these are all locals with deep roots, Peloponnesians ranges from Central Med to East Med, with a good number in the transitional zone. Drawn-on black hull to outline the range:

 

[pegasus]

Eastern Cappadocians are closer to Pontic Greeks and Armenians while western Cappadocians are closer to Greek islanders(inclunding Crete) and Cyprus. As For Cretans they devire much of their ancestry from a population similar to BA Anatolians but with more Greek and Levantine admixture. Also Crete has a Slavic infleunece that Cappadocian Greeks lack.

Aegean Greeks from Smyrna would be the same as those from Trabzon and surrounds right?