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  1. #1
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    Cool Greek Discussion Thread

    I opened this thread for discussion about Greeks. I noticed that there are a few threads around about specific topics about Greeks, but not one which is filled with miscellaneous ones. Feel free to post anything about Greeks in here.



    I will start in this first post by posting some things which I found interesting.

    There is a little known feature on vahaduo (https://vahaduo.github.io/vahaduo/) that I learnt about recently. The distance tab contains modes which allow direct comparison of two target samples. The results of these modes can provide interesting insight into the differences between two target samples in a nice format.

    Let us take a look at Turkish_Trabzon vs. Armenian_Hemsheni.



    What this output seems to tell me is that there are two main reasons why they are not exactly identical:
    1. Pontians share more of some ancestral component which is also found in Empuries, Calabrians, other Greeks and even Sicily_LBA. I wonder what that component is?
    2. Pontians share less of some ancestral component which is found in the ancient Caucasus populations and Georgian Imer.

    A reasonable explanation for these two trends is that Pontians and Hemsheni are nearly identical except the former clearly has more ancient Greek admixture, most likely similar to that of the Empuries sample.

    How about Greek_Kos vs. Greek_Crete?



    Like last time, it's showing us the two main reasons why they are different:
    1. Greeks from Kos have more of an affinity to ancient Anatolians and modern Levantines than Cretans.
    2. Cretans have more affinity to populations with Slavo-baltic admixture than Greeks from Kos.

    These trends are obviously the result of the Slavic migrations into the Balkans having less of an impact into the Dodecanese. Possibly some recent Anatolian movement towards the Dodecanese too, of course, but can be explained by Dodecanese always having more Anatolian than the rest of Greece.

    Finally, let us take a look at myself compared to Greek_Kos.



    In this case, it is a bit harder to understand the output but here are my thoughts on it. Firstly, I have additional Iranian/Caucasus admixture from the unknown ancestry of my mother. This causes me to have more affinity towards Iran/Maykop than Kos and also reduces my Neolithic Farmer admixture, making me more distant to ancient Europeans like Mycenaeans and Sardinians compared to Kos.

    Actually, in cases like this, where it may be harder to understand what's happening, there's another mode worth exploring. It compares using a ratio instead of an absolute difference.



    So compared to Kos, the main difference is indeed that I share some sort of ancestry found in Eastern Anatolia and less to the East Med.



    Hopefully you didn't find reading this a complete waste of time. You can post your thoughts here, or show your own examples and give your own interpretation to the output. Or you can post about something else, as long as it is in some way related to Greeks.

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    screencapture-vahaduo-github-io-vahaduo-1604603663186.png

    Greek Trabzon VS Turkish Trabzon: the first is looking towards the Caucausus, the second towards the East Med, very interesting little fact that also correlates to known historical ethnographic sources, Eastern Pontus Greek were mainly a mountainous folk, is this a possible explanation to their Caucasian shift?

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    This might be off topic because it's not about genetics. Our name for you "Grk" is like the first part of the word "grkljan" or "grlo" which means throat. I wonder if there's something to that? Like the opposite of how we call Germans "Njemci" which means mute/can't speak/dumb, which is pretty funny that we still call them that to this day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oz View Post
    This might be off topic because it's not about genetics. Our name for you "Grk" is like the first part of the word "grkljan" or "grlo" which means throat. I wonder if there's something to that? Like the opposite of how we call Germans "Njemci" which means mute/can't speak/dumb, which is pretty funny that we still call them that to this day.

    Many vowels in the language phonetics, maybe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Many vowels in the language phonetics, maybe?
    I don't know if it's only coincidental. For example "tur" is one of our words for butt... I doubt we got that from the word Turk lol. The word "fin" means nice, good, fine, does it have a connection with Fins who we call Finci? I just wonder if these linguistic coincidences actually mean anything. Maybe sometimes they do and sometimes they don't.

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    Byzantine Empire Thracian Odrysian Kingdom Empire of Trebizond
    Using the ancients list and comparing Greek and Turkish Trabzon.

    screencapture-vahaduo-github-io-vahaduo-1604646345112.png


    Greek Trabzon looks Caucasian shifted, compared to its counterpart, whereas Turkish Trabzon looks, again, like it's shifting towards the Levant.

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    As you mentioned, Greeks from Kos show a strong genetic connection to BA Anatolian groups. In my opinion, it's likely that the Aegean islands always formed the bridge between Anatolian and Mycenaean like populations. Both are pretty close to each-other anyway, with the former having a higher share of CHG/IranN ancestry.

    Target: Greek_Kos

    Distance: 0.7373% / 0.00737258
    33.6 TUR_Isparta_EBA
    27.2 Levant_Beirut_ERoman
    17.4 Iberia_Northeast_Empuries2
    16.4 Yamnaya_BGR
    5.4 HUN_Avar_Szolad

    It would be interesting to see LBA/IA genomes from the Aegean. I hope the new paper on Greek genetics that people have been talking about is able to shed light on this region.

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    Btw, former Greek_Thrace gets its best fit with Yamnaya_BGR (scaled), among all other possible combos I've tried.

    Target: Greek_Thrace_scaled
    Distance: 3.1731% / 0.03173115
    62.2 Yamnaya_BGR
    34.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    1.4 Papuan
    1.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.6 WHG
    0.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

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    That is correct, I couldnt agree more how they connected.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dosas View Post
    Btw, former Greek_Thrace gets its best fit with Yamnaya_BGR (scaled), among all other possible combos I've tried.

    Target: Greek_Thrace_scaled
    Distance: 3.1731% / 0.03173115
    62.2 Yamnaya_BGR
    34.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    1.4 Papuan
    1.2 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    0.6 WHG
    0.2 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
    For comparison here's what I got:
    Distance: 2.8863% / 0.02886305
    Target: Anthony_C_scaled
    57.0 Yamnaya_BGR
    43.0 TUR_Barcin_N

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