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Thread: Langobard study has S1194, U106, P312 migrating from Sth Baltic to Italy in 600AD.

  1. #191
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helves View Post
    It's interesting though that there's no attestation of an East Germanic language in Sweden.
    It seems to me that the East Germanic languages should rather be seen as an early stage of the Common Germanic dialect rather than a separate branch "parallel" to Northern and Western Germanic. More precisely, the linguistic innovations common to Western and Northern Germanic languages arose only after the Goths migrated to Poland and further south (south-east), so these innovations have not been shared by Gothic while there was still a kind of dialect continuum encompassing Scandinavia and Northern Germany where the common North-Western Germanic branch (distinct from the more "conservative" East Germanic branch) arose by the end of the first half of the 1st millenium AD. This is why the Nordic languages are more closely related to West Germanic than to East Germanic, although the East Germanic speakers could have originally come from Scandinavia (and from Denmark, if considering Vandalic an East Germanic language, too).

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  3. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    The Goths had to have been in Poland in the BC times as they merged with West-Balts before heading down to the black sea areas in early AD times
    There are no written sources indicating the Goths were present in Poland in the BC times. The Goths in Poland are commonly identified with the Wielbark culture that started about 50-100 AD. Importantly, this is consistent not only with the narrative of Jordanes but also with the earlier written sources (Tacitus, Ptolemy) confirming the presence of the Goths in Northern Poland shortly thereafter, not to mention the most recent genetic results that are consistent with the archeology and confirm the Scandinavian origin of the Wielbark culture.

    There were no Romans in Northern Poland, so the Roman Times are commonly considered a part of the Iron Age in Poland, hence the association of the Goths and Wielbark culture with the Iron Age in Poland.

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  5. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    there is an update to the previous discussion about the arrival from scadanan aka scandinvia
    samples from wielbark-kowalewko have turned up confirming a scandinavian migration for the wielbark culture (Γύθωνες GOTHONES) thus potentially a good ref. for scandinavian derived germanic groups

    in comparison to the longobards* the longobards would then not have arrived from scandinavia
     


    at best (as suggesting by history) an elbgermanic people from the lowerelbe (lüneburger zone)
    rendering the "scadanan" narrative indeed as either an MP myth or adopting from the gepids (goth kindreds)

    *overlapper is SZ2
    only longobards used that had xTSI and IBS
    Any more ydna results by chance? I know there is supposed to be at least two U106 sample from Wielbark etc.... Also for those samples in the Baiuvari burials around Munich remember they were associated with pottery that came to Bohemia probably from near the Elbe... To Bohemia, then to some of the burials around the Roman forts and later south of them.....

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  7. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    There are no written sources indicating the Goths were present in Poland in the BC times. The Goths in Poland are commonly identified with the Wielbark culture that started about 50-100 AD. Importantly, this is consistent not only with the narrative of Jordanes but also with the earlier written sources (Tacitus, Ptolemy) confirming the presence of the Goths in Northern Poland shortly thereafter, not to mention the most recent genetic results that are consistent with the archeology and confirm the Scandinavian origin of the Wielbark culture.

    There were no Romans in Northern Poland, so the Roman Times are commonly considered a part of the Iron Age in Poland, hence the association of the Goths and Wielbark culture with the Iron Age in Poland.

    Isn't kultura oksywska a Goth culture?

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  9. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Isn't kultura oksywska a Goth culture?
    Oksywie (kultura oksywska) is quite commonly considered a Germanic culture, very closely related to Przeworsk (thus to the Vandals), but unlike the Wielbark Goths they don't seem to have arrived to Poland from Sweden. Most often, they are being identified with the Rugii who lived along the Polish Baltic coast. Jordanes wrote that shortly after coming from Scandinavia to Poland (or to the mouth of the Vistula river) the Goths defeated the local Rugii people (and then they defeated the Vandals, most likely those living in Northern Greater Poland where the Gothic Kowalewko site is located).

    There are some speculations that the Rugii originated from SW Norway, but it is not clear whether they came to Poland together with the Vandals (who are believed to have originated from Northern Jutland) or separately (at some later time?). Anyway, the Przeworsk and Oksywie cultures seem to be very similar to each other - they are sometimes called "twin cultures" - but they are both very different from the Gothic Wielbark culture (although Wielbark does show some continuity with Oksywie). Most likely, the Scandinavian Goths have assimiliated the local Germanic people from the Rugii tribe and the biritual burial rite may reflect this coexistence of people of Gothic and Rugian ancestry within the common Wielbark population (with the inhumation characteristic for people of Gothic origin).
    Last edited by Michał; 04-19-2021 at 06:32 PM.

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  11. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    There are no written sources indicating the Goths were present in Poland in the BC times. The Goths in Poland are commonly identified with the Wielbark culture that started about 50-100 AD. Importantly, this is consistent not only with the narrative of Jordanes but also with the earlier written sources (Tacitus, Ptolemy) confirming the presence of the Goths in Northern Poland shortly thereafter, not to mention the most recent genetic results that are consistent with the archeology and confirm the Scandinavian origin of the Wielbark culture.

    There were no Romans in Northern Poland, so the Roman Times are commonly considered a part of the Iron Age in Poland, hence the association of the Goths and Wielbark culture with the Iron Age in Poland.
    Firstly ....I find the Historian Jordanes ( a born Goth ) as a fabricator of Gothic glory and also Inaccurate in his calculations.......he basically took another historian work and manipulated to suit his Gothic ethnicity.

    Then..........We need to make sense of Gothic arrival on the black sea and their departure period and place , what are these years, do they overlap ?.............clearly they did not sail straight from Sweden/gotland/scania to travel to the black sea ..........then there is also a merger of Goths and west-balt Aestii people to consider

    lastly ............goths had continuous wars with the Scythians but goths where aligned with Sarmatians ...............this needs to be sorted , something historians have failed to meet


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  12. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michał View Post
    It seems to me that the East Germanic languages should rather be seen as an early stage of the Common Germanic dialect rather than a separate branch "parallel" to Northern and Western Germanic. More precisely, the linguistic innovations common to Western and Northern Germanic languages arose only after the Goths migrated to Poland and further south (south-east), so these innovations have not been shared by Gothic while there was still a kind of dialect continuum encompassing Scandinavia and Northern Germany where the common North-Western Germanic branch (distinct from the more "conservative" East Germanic branch) arose by the end of the first half of the 1st millenium AD. This is why the Nordic languages are more closely related to West Germanic than to East Germanic, although the East Germanic speakers could have originally come from Scandinavia (and from Denmark, if considering Vandalic an East Germanic language, too).
    You mentioned that the Nordic languages ​​are more closely related to the North and West Germanic than the East Germanic languages. Can one assume that the East Germanic language developed in south-east Poland and what characteristics it has and are there relationships with other language groups or is it difficult to reconstruct Vandalism, Burgundian and Crimean Gothic, which are also included in the East Germanic language branch, based on few evidence Many texts have been handed down from the Gothic (since the Gothic has retained several archaisms and has not taken recent developments with it, compared to the West and North Germanic). since we all know here that the East Germanic language has been exhausted?
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  13. #198
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    ^^^^^^^^^ I suspect we don't know the Burgundian and Vandalic languages well enough to determine whether they shared any common innovations with Gothic (in addition to some shared archaisms), as only a set of shared innovations would make such a broadly understood "East Germanic branch" a valid monophyletic group.
    Last edited by Michał; 04-20-2021 at 08:31 AM.

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