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Thread: Langobard study has S1194, U106, P312 migrating from Sth Baltic to Italy in 600AD.

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    Langobard study has S1194, U106, P312 migrating from Sth Baltic to Italy in 600AD.

    1st to reaffirm that S1194 plus U106 and P312 and A8053 are all brother clades with parent L151. They have a common TMRCA of 4800 (per YFull).

    Roberta Estes previously posted this link below just showing how the team at FTDNA analysed the DNA data from the Langobard Cemetery burials in Collegno Italy and got down deep into their DNA lines.

    https://dna-explained.com/2020/10/16...HVp14q80qCKk5Y

    What it indicates is that Langobard burials in the Collegno cemetery included exactly the Y-DNA mix we have predicted (at the S1194 FTDNA project) that reflects the Langobard people from Sth Baltic being of mixed Y-DNA including I, U106, S1194 and some P312. (Note there is a R1b-P312-DF99 burial & DF99 is usually associated with the Sth Baltic & Scandinavia.

    At the DNA eXplained site, the S1194 burials are CL92, CL93, CL145, CL146, and CL151. The sub-clades of S1194 involved are ... A8472 and S22519. The burial labelled CL94 is R1b-P312-DF99.

    Why this information matters to us S1194 people is that until this information emerged, our oldest burials were from the Middle Ages (circa 1400s) and on the Faroe Islands where VK25 & VK234 (brothers) were buried. We now have a picture of a Langobard cemetery from around the time of the migration, and showing a substantial pocket of S1194 Y-DNA (5 burials). Based on the mix of Y-DNA at the Collegno site, S1194 were equally as abundant as I & U106 & P312 if not more so. This is a really interesting aspect.

    The paper also makes an interesting connection between the other Langobard related cemetery in Szólád Hungary, where it is said that there is a DNA match between a burial there and the Tollense burials back at the Sth Baltic. At Szólád there is I2-BY138* which is linked to Tollense I2-Z2054*

    The original Langobard study paper was published in 2018 - see here - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4

    More detail can be seen at this site that has some good diagrams. https://indo-european.eu/2020/10/lon...arpad-lineage/
    Last edited by dsm; 11-16-2020 at 08:52 PM. Reason: changed 4 burials to 5 burials
    R1b-L151=>S1194 FTDNA Project administrator

    L151 child clades P312==U106==S1194==A8053
    NOTE: S1200 & A8039 are child clades of S1194
    Also note: S1200==CTS4528, and S1203==DF100

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Quite interesting! S1194 has a distribution which is somewhat similar to that of U106.
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 11-16-2020 at 11:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Piquerobi View Post
    Quite interesting! S1194 has a distribution which is somewhat similar to that of U106.
    We have long argued that S1194 was among and allied to eastern U106 around the Sth-Baltic & Jutland base - the Langobardi came from around this shared area.
    It seems to me that S1194 had a serious bottle-neck around the Sth Baltic and was only 'let out' when U106 began to prosper and expand. What we see is S1194 piggy-backing on U106 success.
    R1b-L151=>S1194 FTDNA Project administrator

    L151 child clades P312==U106==S1194==A8053
    NOTE: S1200 & A8039 are child clades of S1194
    Also note: S1200==CTS4528, and S1203==DF100

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

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    Their trip took much less time and distance than that of the Goths. That's probably why they retained much more of their original input than the Goths, at least for some time after they reached their final destination. Eventually both faded away, though their final impact is still open to debate. Paul the Deacon wrote their ultimate origins lie in Scandinavia, and the results of the study seem to confirm he was right after all.

    Sample CL146 (yDNA, S1194), f.e:

    EUtest 4-Ancestors Oracle

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 33.78
    2 ATLANTIC 24.10
    3 EAST_EURO 14.74
    4 SOUTH_BALTIC 13.91
    5 WEST_MED 7.85
    6 WEST_ASIAN 2.63
    7 EAST_AFRICAN 1.31
    8 SOUTH_ASIAN 1.27


    Finished reading population data. 78 populations found.
    13 components mode.

    --------------------------------

    Least-squares method.

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 NO @ 4.413241
    2 DK @ 4.976556
    3 South_&_Central_Swedish @ 5.199759
    4 English @ 8.751367
    5 NL @ 8.982396
    6 North_Swedish @ 9.214722
    7 Orcadian @ 9.645836
    8 West_&_Central_German @ 10.088122
    9 IE @ 10.543718
    10 Cornish @ 11.496747
    11 Scottish @ 11.506674
    12 AT @ 18.109987
    13 South_Finnish @ 19.243181
    14 FR @ 19.910583
    15 HU @ 23.101604
    16 East_Finnish @ 24.658625
    17 PL @ 24.867001
    18 EE @ 25.931368
    19 Serbian @ 26.406242
    20 UA @ 27.088692

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% DK +50% NO @ 4.352211


    Using 3 populations approximation:
    1 50% DK +25% NO +25% NO @ 4.352211


    Using 4 populations approximation:
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    1 DK + NO + NO + NO @ 4.295336
    2 DK + DK + NO + NO @ 4.352211
    3 DK + DK + NO + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.371971
    4 DK + NO + NO + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.374753
    5 NO + NO + NO + NO @ 4.413241
    6 DK + DK + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.457692
    7 DK + NO + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.507979
    8 NO + NO + NO + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.542354
    9 DK + DK + DK + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.564662
    10 DK + DK + DK + NO @ 4.586897
    11 DK + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.690436
    12 NO + NO + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.716191
    13 English + NO + NO + NO @ 4.743278
    14 English + NO + NO + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.783572
    15 English + NO + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.874554
    16 DK + English + NO + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.917493
    17 DK + DK + NO + North_Swedish @ 4.925399
    18 DK + English + NO + NO @ 4.932103
    19 NO + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.942681
    20 DK + English + South_&_Central_Swedish + South_&_Central_Swedish @ 4.962243

    Done.

    Elapsed time 0.0613 seconds.
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 11-18-2020 at 06:57 PM.

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    I'm curious as to the ones still just labelled P312. Were they just poor coverage/condition samples or are they really folks with nothing known below P312?
    R1b>M269>L23>L51>L11>P312>DF19>DF88>FGC11833 >S4281>S4268>Z17112>BY44243

    Ancestors: Francis Cooke (M223/I2a2a) b1583; Hester Mahieu (Cooke) (J1c2 mtDNA) b.1584; Richard Warren (E-M35) b1578; Elizabeth Walker (Warren) (H1j mtDNA) b1583;
    John Mead (I2a1/P37.2) b1634; Rev. Joseph Hull (I1, L1301+ L1302-) b1595; Benjamin Harrington (M223/I2a2a-Y5729) b1618; Joshua Griffith (L21>DF13) b1593;
    John Wing (U106) b1584; Thomas Gunn (DF19) b1605; Hermann Wilhelm (DF19) b1635

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dewsloth View Post
    I'm curious as to the ones still just labelled P312. Were they just poor coverage/condition samples or are they really folks with nothing known below P312?
    I have wondered about them. There are several possibilities. 1) They were among the original Langobards - the P312-DF99 burial seems to me to suggest this for this burial at least), 2) They are P312 who got infused along the migration way from Sth Baltic, or 3) they are P312 locals. At the moment I'll go with P312-DF99 being from Sth Baltic region.
    R1b-L151=>S1194 FTDNA Project administrator

    L151 child clades P312==U106==S1194==A8053
    NOTE: S1200 & A8039 are child clades of S1194
    Also note: S1200==CTS4528, and S1203==DF100

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Hidden Content

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    1st to reaffirm that S1194 plus U106 and P312 and A8053 are all brother clades with parent L151. They have a common TMRCA of 4800 (per YFull).

    Roberta Estes previously posted this link below just showing how the team at FTDNA analysed the DNA data from the Langobard Cemetery burials in Collegno Italy and got down deep into their DNA lines.

    https://dna-explained.com/2020/10/16...HVp14q80qCKk5Y

    What it indicates is that Langobard burials in the Collegno cemetery included exactly the Y-DNA mix we have predicted (at the S1194 FTDNA project) that reflects the Langobard people from Sth Baltic being of mixed Y-DNA including I, U106, S1194 and some P312. (Note there is a R1b-P312-DF99 burial & DF99 is usually associated with the Sth Baltic & Scandinavia.

    At the DNA eXplained site, the S1194 burials are CL92, CL93, CL145, CL146, and CL151. The sub-clades of S1194 involved are ... A8472 and S22519. The burial labelled CL94 is R1b-P312-DF99.

    Why this information matters to us S1194 people is that until this information emerged, our oldest burials were from the Middle Ages (circa 1400s) and on the Faroe Islands where VK25 & VK234 (brothers) were buried. We now have a picture of a Langobard cemetery from around the time of the migration, and showing a substantial pocket of S1194 Y-DNA (5 burials). Based on the mix of Y-DNA at the Collegno site, S1194 were equally as abundant as I & U106 & P312 if not more so. This is a really interesting aspect.

    The paper also makes an interesting connection between the other Langobard related cemetery in Szólád Hungary, where it is said that there is a DNA match between a burial there and the Tollense burials back at the Sth Baltic. At Szólád there is I2-BY138* which is linked to Tollense I2-Z2054*

    The original Langobard study paper was published in 2018 - see here - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4

    More detail can be seen at this site that has some good diagrams. https://indo-european.eu/2020/10/lon...arpad-lineage/
    Are they now confirming that all CL samples came from Scania Sweden to pannonia to italy , while the SK samples via Pannonia to Italy ?


    My Path = ( K-M9+, TL-P326+, T-M184+, L490+, M70+, PF5664+, L131+, L446+, CTS933+, CTS3767+, CTS8862+, Z19945+, BY143483 )


    Grandfather via paternal grandmother = I1-L22 ydna
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    I have wondered about them. There are several possibilities. 1) They were among the original Langobards - the P312-DF99 burial seems to me to suggest this for this burial at least), 2) They are P312 who got infused along the migration way from Sth Baltic, or 3) they are P312 locals. At the moment I'll go with P312-DF99 being from Sth Baltic region.
    P312 is actually quite common in the Nordic regions. Particularly L238 and DF19 have a “northern exposure” but DF99 and elements of DF27 could be added too. Don’t forget DF27’s Z209, the old North-South cluster.

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    For my U152 bros, One of the samples was U152>L2>DF103>FGC4166

    Sample: SZ27B
    Location: Szólád, Somogy County, Hungary
    Age: Longobard 6th Century 412-538 cal CE
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    FTDNA Comment: Shares 1 SNP with a man from France. Forms a new branch down of R-FGC4166 (U152). New branch = R-FT190624
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    FGC4166 isn't my branch of L2, but my branch U152>L2>Z49>Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC47869>FGC12401 does have a subclade, BY5698 that has 1 member from Italy and 1 from Hungary. IIRC, the Italian member has wondered if Longobards could be the source of his branch. ytree.net dates it to 791 BC (95% confidence interval is 1445 BC to 167 BC)
    Y DNA line continued: Z142>Z12222>FGC12378>FGC12401>FGC12384
    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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    Quote Originally Posted by vettor View Post
    Are they now confirming that all CL samples came from Scania Sweden to pannonia to italy , while the SK samples via Pannonia to Italy ?
    They make some comments but are very cautious. In effect they say that their research didn't find anything to contradict the historical migration story.
    R1b-L151=>S1194 FTDNA Project administrator

    L151 child clades P312==U106==S1194==A8053
    NOTE: S1200 & A8039 are child clades of S1194
    Also note: S1200==CTS4528, and S1203==DF100

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

    Hidden Content

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