Page 3 of 18 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 175

Thread: Langobard study has S1194, U106, P312 migrating from Sth Baltic to Italy in 600AD.

  1. #21
    Registered Users
    Posts
    967
    Sex
    Location
    UK
    Ethnicity
    Tuscan Italian
    Nationality
    British
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152+Z36+
    mtDNA (M)
    U6a7a

    United Kingdom Italy
    Quote Originally Posted by alexfritz View Post
    has anyone factchecked this stuff?
    for example i see CL49 no longer as published in the paper U152 > L2 > Z367
    now instead as Z2116 > CTS6889/S1161
    yet in Supp. Data3 he is listed as (DER) derived for L52, L151 and P312 (aswell as Z367)
    whats up with that?

    above all the 'historical migration' should not be confused with the 'mythical/legendary migration' of the Longobards
    the historical migration begins ~500AD/CE as vassals of the (H)Eruli [Pr.VI/14] around the danube and continuing ~508 with vanquishing said realm(and RODULF) thence the first historical leader ?dux VACES(Waccho) gets mentioned and from now historically contiues with what the Origo and later Historia records; anything else before is shrouded in myths and speculations but it is interesting as these are the myths of the MP and reveal a certain fashion/conscius within the MP of the wandering societies long gone from their homelands; for further insights into the histroical attested era of the Longobards, the Noricum/Pannonia era, this is a radiocarbon analysis (in German) and their results

    the clear Thuringian nature of Szolad the clear Thuringian nature of kings in Italy make the Longobards a splinter group/society of the Thuringians at best, prob formed in the post Hun hegemony and (H)Eruli vassalage days; a recent Thuringian necropolis was uncovered in Germany recently and also here there are links to the Longobards(and Alamanni)
    I looked again at the supplementary information on the Szolad and Collegno samples.
    Most of the Szolad samples with NW European (or predominanantly NW European origins) had a small "Finnish" component (1K GENOMES FINNISH) in bar chart B and the same "Finnish" element was present in a minority of the Collegno samples from NW Italy (bar chart C).

    Even setting aside the myths and legends from Paul the Deacon and others, a Scandinavian provenance of the original Langobards must be true given the genetic evidence in the supplementary information.
    Last edited by Cascio; 11-22-2020 at 07:48 AM.

  2. The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to Cascio For This Useful Post:

     Alain (11-23-2020),  alexfritz (12-05-2020),  Bygdedweller (11-22-2020),  dsm (11-24-2020),  Nino90 (11-22-2020),  Piquerobi (11-22-2020),  Riverman (11-22-2020)

  3. #22
    Registered Users
    Posts
    725
    Location
    Brazil
    Nationality
    Brazilian

    Brazil
    ^ The Scandinavian pull is also present in Anglo-Saxon, Alemannic and Baiuvarii samples, which would suggest Scandinavia (North Germany likely included) as the homeplace of the Germanic tribes. My own yDNA, which is after a distant German ancestor from the Rhineland region, reminds me of it as well. It is S1194 too. And its particular branch may have spread with these tribes to the Rhine region, at least as time passes by it is looking more and more so (the sample from Hungary has a German sounding surname):

    R1bMatthias....jpg
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 11-23-2020 at 12:18 PM.

  4. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Piquerobi For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (12-03-2020),  Cascio (11-23-2020),  dsm (11-24-2020),  Finn (12-04-2020),  sheepslayer (11-23-2020),  spruithean (11-23-2020)

  5. #23
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,352
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Piquerobi View Post
    ^ The Scandinavian pull is also present in Anglo-Saxon, Alemannic and Baiuvarii samples, which would suggest Scandinavia (North Germany likely included) as the homeplace of the Germanic tribes.
    Or rather a higher or better said less Southern shifted preservation of the core Germanic ancestry. Most certainly, Germany, even Northern Germany, received more Southern shifted ancestry later than let's say South Western Norway. But that doesn't mean that by 300 BC South Western Norway was closer to the Germanic core than Lower Saxony, it could mean the exact opposite. In fact we don't know, until we have actual samples.

  6. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Riverman For This Useful Post:

     Bygdedweller (11-23-2020),  Cascio (11-23-2020),  Dewsloth (11-23-2020),  JMcB (11-23-2020),  Piquerobi (11-23-2020),  rothaer (01-04-2021),  sheepslayer (11-23-2020),  spruithean (11-23-2020)

  7. #24
    Registered Users
    Posts
    901
    Sex
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Ethnicity
    Norse-Gael/Celto-Germani
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    U106DF98KingsCluster
    mtDNA (M)
    T2b2bIrish/Scan

    Ireland Scotland Germany Norway England Northern Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by dsm View Post
    1st to reaffirm that S1194 plus U106 and P312 and A8053 are all brother clades with parent L151. They have a common TMRCA of 4800 (per YFull).

    Roberta Estes previously posted this link below just showing how the team at FTDNA analysed the DNA data from the Langobard Cemetery burials in Collegno Italy and got down deep into their DNA lines.

    https://dna-explained.com/2020/10/16...HVp14q80qCKk5Y

    What it indicates is that Langobard burials in the Collegno cemetery included exactly the Y-DNA mix we have predicted (at the S1194 FTDNA project) that reflects the Langobard people from Sth Baltic being of mixed Y-DNA including I, U106, S1194 and some P312. (Note there is a R1b-P312-DF99 burial & DF99 is usually associated with the Sth Baltic & Scandinavia.

    At the DNA eXplained site, the S1194 burials are CL92, CL93, CL145, CL146, and CL151. The sub-clades of S1194 involved are ... A8472 and S22519. The burial labelled CL94 is R1b-P312-DF99.

    Why this information matters to us S1194 people is that until this information emerged, our oldest burials were from the Middle Ages (circa 1400s) and on the Faroe Islands where VK25 & VK234 (brothers) were buried. We now have a picture of a Langobard cemetery from around the time of the migration, and showing a substantial pocket of S1194 Y-DNA (5 burials). Based on the mix of Y-DNA at the Collegno site, S1194 were equally as abundant as I & U106 & P312 if not more so. This is a really interesting aspect.

    The paper also makes an interesting connection between the other Langobard related cemetery in Szˇlßd Hungary, where it is said that there is a DNA match between a burial there and the Tollense burials back at the Sth Baltic. At Szˇlßd there is I2-BY138* which is linked to Tollense I2-Z2054*

    The original Langobard study paper was published in 2018 - see here - https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-06024-4

    More detail can be seen at this site that has some good diagrams. https://indo-european.eu/2020/10/lon...arpad-lineage/
    Thanks for the update! Quick question as I only just got back to research mode, but I noticed in my notes and original paper CL151 was a female burial? Just wanted to ask about that... did it change (found to be male)? Or did you mean CL97 which is male in kindred 1? I had made notes on CL84 being U106 in my aDNA list, but assumed that kindred would be U106, but is rather S1194... sounds we are in the same boat now where did we have our epicentre and expand from ;-)?
    Last edited by Bollox79; 12-03-2020 at 09:29 PM.
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Johann Adam Weber/Weaver born 1784 in Pennsylvania. Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers! Father Captain Martin Weber b. 1739 in Hesse(?), Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - SÝlasta­ir in Eyjafjar­arsřsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

  8. #25
    Registered Users
    Posts
    901
    Sex
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Ethnicity
    Norse-Gael/Celto-Germani
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    U106DF98KingsCluster
    mtDNA (M)
    T2b2bIrish/Scan

    Ireland Scotland Germany Norway England Northern Ireland
    Quote Originally Posted by Piquerobi View Post
    ^ The Scandinavian pull is also present in Anglo-Saxon, Alemannic and Baiuvarii samples, which would suggest Scandinavia (North Germany likely included) as the homeplace of the Germanic tribes. My own yDNA, which is after a distant German ancestor from the Rhineland region, reminds me of it as well. It is S1194 too. And its particular branch may have spread with these tribes to the Rhine region, at least as time passes by it is looking more and more so (the sample from Hungary has a German sounding surname):

    R1bMatthias....jpg
    Hello! My "most distant known male ancestor" is from the Rhineland as well - my nearest Y-DNA match is a German Ochs family: this from Dr. Iain McDonald of our DF98 King's Cluster project - Match with a male line with the surname Ochs b. 1720 and d. 1799 in Frankfurt an Main, Hesse, Germany. Combined with STR differences, around 450 to 1220 years ago (with 95% confidence) or around 560 to 1020 years ago (68%) for a common ancestor. I see a tree at ancestry that has Martin being born in Alt÷tting, Bayern, Germany down near Munich, but I'd have to fact/record check that when I renew my membership here soon! The Y-DNA match is from Frankfurt an Main - with the ancestor having a Northern(?) middle name - Thielemann... aka Johann or Nicolaus Thielemann Ochs... I'd have to check notes or tree at ancestry.

    Keeping in mind a Z306 (well Z304, 305 and 306 aka the group above both DF98 and DF96) and also a DF96er (brother group to DF98) have been found buried in founder burials (by founder I mean "phase one" burials in the paper about early Medieval cemeteries in Bavaria: Phase 1 burial (mid 400s - early 500s AD) around Munich... so not out of the realm of possibility as both AED U106 who is Z305 was phase 1 as well as AED 92 (if they are kindred - maybe AED 92 is also Z305 - wish there was better quality of the sample): here are my notes on the early Baiuvarii burials in the paper that looked ad ACD and non-ACD burials with the paper and bam file analysis by Alex Williamson of Big tree etc and with all the notes I've been able to find on the particular burials in question:

    Medieval Bavarian samples from this paper: Population genomic analysis of elongated skulls reveals extensive female-biased immigration in Early Medieval Bavaria: http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/03/06/1719880115

    AED (Altenerding-Klettham cemetery) 106: U106+ (possibly based on BAM analysis kit run by several people and Yleaf for the Z305 result - update: 3 reads for U106 and one for Z305 per Alex W.) - Z381+, Z156+, Z305+): Male aged 60+. Grave goods included: spatha, belt, bag, vessel, glass. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480 - 510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA near Saxony and NE Germany. Phase 1 burial (mid 400s - early 500s AD). Number of grave goods: 10 per the paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.” Additional info from the book “Local, Regional and Ethnic Identities in Early Medieval Cemeteries in Bavaria: "The belt buckles of Phase 1 were small and usually made of a single or two pieces (buckle and counter-plate).” AED 106’s counter-plate was decorated with gold-in-garnet inlay.

    AED (Altenerding-Klettham cemetery) 92: U106+ (per BAM analysis - update: 35 reads(!) for U106 per Alex W.): Male aged 20-30. Grave goods included: spatha, seax, lance, shield, belt, bag. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480-510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA very near Mecklenburg-Vorpommern in NE Germany (almost on top of it). Edit: Phase 1 burial (mid 400s - early 500s AD). Number of grave goods: 23 (the highest number of grave goods in this cemetery of the samples looked at in the paper Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes). Additional info from the book “Local, Regional and Ethnic Identities in Early Medieval Cemeteries in Bavaria: "The belt buckles of Phase 1 were small and usually made of a single or two pieces (buckle and counter-plate).” AED 92’s belt buckle was made from rock crystal (one of two at Altenerding).

    ALH (Altheim cemetery) 1: U106+, (ALH 1 has now been found positive for the following SNPs by Alex Williamson: R-M269>U106/S21> Z381/S263>S264/Z156>S265/Z304> DF96>FGC13326>S22047>FGC46344>FGC13597. Male aged 50-60+. Grave goods included: Grave was disturbed/robbed. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite: Undateable, but other graves ALH 2, 3, and 10 were carbon dated in the range of roughly 260-535 AD (using lowest and highest estimates). Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA in between Norway, Denmark, and Northern Netherlands/Friesland.

    STR (Straubing-Bajuwarenstra▀e cemetery) 316: U106+(based on BAM file analysis - update: 4 reads for U106 per Alex W.). Male aged 40-60. Grave goods included: belt, bag, vessel. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 480-510 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA between North Norway and Norwegians and somewhat near ALH 1. Phase 2 burial (1st half of 6th cent: 500-550 AD) and 7 grave goods per the paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.”

    STR (Straubing-Bajuwarenstra▀e cemetery) 393: U106+(based on BAM file analysis - update: 11 reads for U106 per Alex W.). Male aged 40-55. Grave goods included: spatha. Burial dated based on grave goods/burial rite to circa 460 – 530 AD. Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA near Central East Prussia. No info from paper “Diet and Mobility in Early Medieval Bavaria: A case study of Carbon and Nitrogen stable isotopes.”

    Cheers!
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Johann Adam Weber/Weaver born 1784 in Pennsylvania. Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers! Father Captain Martin Weber b. 1739 in Hesse(?), Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - SÝlasta­ir in Eyjafjar­arsřsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Bollox79 For This Useful Post:

     Finn (12-04-2020),  JMcB (12-04-2020),  Piquerobi (12-03-2020)

  10. #26
    Registered Users
    Posts
    901
    Sex
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Ethnicity
    Norse-Gael/Celto-Germani
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    U106DF98KingsCluster
    mtDNA (M)
    T2b2bIrish/Scan

    Ireland Scotland Germany Norway England Northern Ireland
    Hmm possibly connections to the South Baltic to U106 (and S1194) - well I did some digging on the early Baiuvarii and Thuringii that book on the subject and I'll have to dig it back up. Also AED 106 (and perhaps AED 92 buried near him same cemetery, phase 1, similar autosomal profile?) and Altheim who is DF96 - those are the only Germanic Migration period burials we have at the moment in my Z304-306 and DF98/DF96 group - the other two are the Roman gladiator/soldier burials at Driffield Terrace a bit before these Bavarians around Munich. AED 92 Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA very near Mecklenburg-Vorpommern in NE Germany (almost on top of it). AED 106 Clusters autosomally in a K36 PCA near Saxony and NE Germany and I think those were on a Davidski's PCA etc...

    I quick look up on Altenerding as it's the only migration burials so far that are in my group... there is a female grave there 421 - and it's considered Scando or more likely by the person who excavated it - Southern Baltic in nature... http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get...FULLTEXT01.pdf - check that pdf and search Altenerding - you will see notes on grave 421 and some discussion about the nature of brooches in the grave etc... its a very large burial ground and I would love to see a big aDNA paper on it, but maybe we can find some clues in the other graves there?

    Anyway back to reading stuff on Altenerding and saw the Southern Baltic reference....

    Cheers!
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Johann Adam Weber/Weaver born 1784 in Pennsylvania. Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers! Father Captain Martin Weber b. 1739 in Hesse(?), Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - SÝlasta­ir in Eyjafjar­arsřsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

  11. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Bollox79 For This Useful Post:

     Dewsloth (12-04-2020),  JMcB (12-04-2020),  Piquerobi (12-04-2020)

  12. #27
    Registered Users
    Posts
    901
    Sex
    Location
    Pennsylvania, USA
    Ethnicity
    Norse-Gael/Celto-Germani
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    U106DF98KingsCluster
    mtDNA (M)
    T2b2bIrish/Scan

    Ireland Scotland Germany Norway England Northern Ireland
    53215234_10155859797040706_5619928697810190336_n.jpg

    There should be a picture there of the grave goods of AED 106 Mr. U106 Z305 phase 1 at Altenerding... I managed to find a picture of them for anyone interested....

    Cheers
    Y-DNA: 4th GGF Johann Adam Weber/Weaver born 1784 in Pennsylvania. Sergeant, US 17th Inf, War of 1812: R1b-U106-DF98-S1911-S1894/S1900-S4004... FGC14817 shared with 6drif-3 - one of the "Headless" Roman Gladiator/Soldiers! Father Captain Martin Weber b. 1739 in Hesse(?), Germany, d. 1804 Dauphin, PA.

    mtDNA: 3rd GGM Bridget O'Danagher b. 1843 Lorrha/Dorrha, Ireland - T2b2b - Pagan Migrant Icelander SSG-A3 (grave 4) - SÝlasta­ir in Eyjafjar­arsřsla, North Iceland is T2b2b.

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Bollox79 For This Useful Post:

     Dewsloth (12-04-2020),  JMcB (12-04-2020)

  14. #28
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,813
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    SGC+TRB Creool
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Cascio View Post
    The original Langobards (or Winnili) were few in number but courageous and came from in or near Skane.

    They increased their numbers by absorbing warrior elements in Northern Germany (akin to the Saxons?) in the first few centuries CE before drifting down into Noricum and Pannonia in the 5th century.

    This information can be gleaned from Paul the Deacon, the 8th century Langobard historian and scholar at Charlemagne's court.

    I don't know if they all have exactly Swedish roots or Baltic one....I guess the "Gefolgschaften" like the Longobards could have brought military people together from a broad Northern Germany/ Southern Scandic room.

    Let's take my father, his Identity by descent (deep dive) has direct links with the people that composed the Longobards:
    Last edited by Finn; 12-04-2020 at 02:58 PM.

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     Cascio (12-04-2020),  Piquerobi (12-04-2020)

  16. #29
    Registered Users
    Posts
    725
    Location
    Brazil
    Nationality
    Brazilian

    Brazil
    Lombard artifacts attached. They were a warrior band, and hunting, kind of a war exercise, is mentioned 42 times in their legal code:

    Hunting

    The fundamental role of hunting is also evident from Rothari’s Edict, which mentions it forty-two times. The Longobards hunted not only to procure food, but also as a way to exercise war, and as such it was taught to boys from a young age. In wooded areas it was common to hunt with falcons, both high and low-flying; deer, aurochs, roe deer and wild boar were hunted on horseback with the help of dogs. The Longobards were also expert archers and trappers.
    http://www.longobardinitalia.it/inde...-of-longobards

    From the supplementary information of the "Understanding 6th-Century Barbary Social Organization and Migration through Paleogenomics" (Amorim et al.):

    Skeletal analysis published in 2004 suggested aspects of lifestyle which appear to have changed significantly in the second period and even more in the third. In the first phase, men with weapons show a marked muscular development and skeletal alterations that indicate an intense physical activity, including evidence of horseback riding. At least 4 individuals of the first phase have cranial lesions produced from cutting of the weapons (Supplementary Figure 22). The data suggest an intense military training and even fighting. In the second phase (640-700 ca.) the physical effort extended was still stressful, but less risky than in the previous phase: none of the few traumas found appear to have been produced by aggression. In the third period of use of the necropolis (eighth century) both the degree of muscular development and the traumatic pathologies, while still indicative of a discrete degree of physical stress, are different from those of previous phases and due to a complete change of lifestyle.
    LombardsIMG_6839.JPG
    LombardSwordSpada_longobarda.jpg
    Lombardgrave1024px-0815_-_Museo_archeologico_di_Milano_-_Corredo_longobardico_(sec._VI-VII)_-_Fo.jpg
    Lombardsf.wzd1v4Z.jpg
    Lombardsdjf3.IMG_6840.JPG
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 12-04-2020 at 09:20 PM.

  17. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Piquerobi For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (12-07-2020),  Bygdedweller (12-04-2020),  Cascio (12-04-2020),  Dewsloth (12-04-2020),  etrusco (12-04-2020),  Finn (12-04-2020),  JMcB (12-04-2020),  Ryukendo (12-04-2020)

  18. #30
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    4,813
    Sex
    Location
    Groningen
    Ethnicity
    SGC+TRB Creool
    Nationality
    NL
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-V22

    Netherlands
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Or rather a higher or better said less Southern shifted preservation of the core Germanic ancestry. Most certainly, Germany, even Northern Germany, received more Southern shifted ancestry later than let's say South Western Norway. But that doesn't mean that by 300 BC South Western Norway was closer to the Germanic core than Lower Saxony, it could mean the exact opposite. In fact we don't know, until we have actual samples.
    A good friend of mine has recently written an article (about the legendary Frisian king Redbad) that gives some insight in also the Lombardic roots. The Germanization during migration time/ early middle ages of big parts of Europe were initiated by Germanic tribes situates in nowadays Schleswig-Holstein and Southern Jutland.

    Otto S. Knottnerus and Han Nijdam, Koning voor eens en altijd Inleiding op het thema Redbad (De Vrije Fries 2020), google translate, key-quotes:

    "The Frisian kings were newcomers to the area, apparently descendants of Saxon and / or Anglo-Saxon warlords who came sailing with their followers in several waves from the Elbe area and southern Jutland with their followers in the fifth and early sixth centuries. We are only sparsely informed about their regions of origin. Around 730, the English chronicler Beda Venerabilis retrospectively describes the immigrants as Saxons, Angels and Juten. That has since become a benchmark. Whether these groups were known as such in ancient times, however, is doubtful. The Widsith not only situates Seaxnum, Ongle and Ytum here, but also tribal groups such as Eowum, Sycgum, Wernum, Myrgingum, SwŠfum and Rondingum that have left few traces. The classical sources know these areas as the residential areas of Chauci, Aviones, Sigulones, Varni, Suevi, Angeli, Reudigni, Charudes and Eudoses.
    ...

    Most of them, according to Tacitus, belonged to a ritual covenant that worshiped the mother goddess Nerthus. That makes it likely that they spoke a Northwest Germanic dialect that was different from the dialects in Scandinavia. There is uncertainty about the Saxons and Jutes. The name of the Jutes cannot be derived from their ancestors, the Eudoses or Eudusii, who previously lived in North Jutland. The Saxones and their islands are first established around 150 AD. Mentioned in writings by Claudius Ptolemy, but that may be a mistake for Aviones, the coastal inhabitants of today's Schleswig-Holstein (* aujo- "river bank, island").

    There is more to say about some tribal groups. The Chauken are situated in Lower Saxony. The Sueven mostly in Holstein: their name returns in the place name Schwabstedt and they could possibly be identical to the Myrgingen. The latter name occurs exclusively in Anglo-Saxon sources. The myth of Offa's victory over one of the English neighboring kingdoms was apparently projected back onto the motherland. Since Offa was regarded as ancestor of the kings of Mercia (Miercna), his native soil could be described as the land of the Myrgingen; because both names mean "border residents".
    ....

    The emergence of such warlords in Northern Germany and Southern Scandinavia was primarily a response to the growing influence of the Roman Empire, which led to a militarization of existing tribal groups. Successful military entrepreneurs - often after careers in Roman service - use of weapons, prestige goods, new knowledge and techniques to bind their supporters to themselves and to burn their neighbors, whether or not on behalf of third parties. The pursuit of wealth and prestige became the driver of a free market centered on violence and intimidation. We may assume that the Frisian kings were descendants of such Kleink÷nige from the migration period.

    This violence race also continued at sea. Chauci pirates regularly raided the Roman frontier provinces from the middle of the first century. From the middle of the third century onwards this role was taken over by groups of Franks, then by Saxons, sometimes accompanied by Frisians, Danes, Jutes (Euciis, Euthio) and / or Sueven (Suevi, Norsavi). The invaders first appeared in the Dutch river area around the middle of the fourth century, then also in France and then in England.

    The identification of these groups is often difficult. New tribal names such as Saxons, Franks, Salians and Alamanen seem to be mainly targeted by itinerant military entrepreneurs who put their combat experience and group loyalty at the service of successful rulers."
    Last edited by Finn; 12-04-2020 at 09:47 PM.

  19. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Finn For This Useful Post:

     Bollox79 (12-07-2020),  Bygdedweller (12-04-2020),  Cascio (12-04-2020),  Dewsloth (12-04-2020),  JMcB (12-04-2020),  Piquerobi (12-04-2020),  Riverman (12-05-2020),  Ryukendo (12-04-2020)

Page 3 of 18 FirstFirst 1234513 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. DÚveloppement de P312 et U106
    By palamede in forum French
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 11-08-2019, 06:57 AM
  2. Subclades of P312 & U106
    By Wing Genealogist in forum R1b General
    Replies: 73
    Last Post: 07-26-2017, 04:55 AM
  3. What does the P312/U106 clade ratio tell us?
    By Cofgene in forum R1b General
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 07-03-2017, 01:58 PM
  4. Replies: 19
    Last Post: 04-03-2014, 04:25 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •