Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456
Results 51 to 59 of 59

Thread: Y-DNA genetic evidence reveals several different ancient origins in the Brahmin popl.

  1. #51
    Registered Users
    Posts
    100
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Kashmiri Pandit
    Y-DNA (P)
    RM417
    mtDNA (M)
    U7

    India United Kingdom United States of America
    Yes, that was the reason I was told they all spoke Farsi (worked in the Mughal court). I’m assuming this is also why the Kashmiri Pandit lexicon has certain farsi words incorporated that the Kashmiri Muslim lexicon does not (i.e. sheer chai v noon chai, as one that immediately comes to mind). I believe I have an old book about Prauhn Koshur my grandfather gave to me. I will look into it and read up on it when I visit my parents, and share anything of interest.

  2. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to kpb For This Useful Post:

     AlluGobi (01-21-2021),  deuterium_1 (01-11-2021),  karnalIroh (12-01-2020),  parasar (11-26-2020)

  3. #52
    Registered Users
    Posts
    547
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-M241
    mtDNA (P)
    M5a2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    Actually, it would have been a result, a consequence of decline of Buddhist power, from the Hephthalite dominance in Bactria-Gandhara and the Gupta Empire in South Asia. Buddhism thrived in regions where it developed into a syncretic religion with an already-existing native religious tradition, the Shinto in Japan, and the Bon in Tibet. In Kashmir there always existed a strong Naga tradition, which agreed a lot with Hinduism that was developing in the second half of the first millennium. Kashmiri Pandits are quite diverse and have diverse origins, and have been evolving for the past 1000 years. The more samples you get, the more obvious it will become, especially with G25. It is basically a microcosm for much of India, people adopting or ascribing a brahmin identity, starting sometime in the 9th century, or about 1200 years ago. Majority of Kashmiris, even those who converted to Islam, claim to be Brahmins, and the diversity of lineages, along with the Naga and Buddhist history of the valley reveal the fact that there weren't any, or in such a proportion, 12 centuries ago, after King Lalitadtya's reign. The term 'Kashmiri Pandit' itself is less than 5 centuries old.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    Let me put it in order.
    Smarta Brahmins are one of the communities that preserved the Vedic codex, by recital, passing it down the generation. Their oral transmission allowed it to be somehow preserved, by memory. no more no less.

    Shankarachara was responsible for giving a philosophical underpinning to what had emerged after Buddhism's decline(Buddhism had already declined centuries before he was born, and relegated to a few pockets in the subcontinent). However you do have a lot of other sects with distinct beliefs, that may not even like being called Hindus, such as the lingayets, however Shankrachara's philosophy is generally somewhat at the hub of much of the remainder of organised hinduism, even if most such believers have an obscured understanding of that.

    Thirdly, the Guptas sure did not rule over much of the subcontinents, however their period saw the beginning of the decline of Buddhism in the realm of their span, and that eventually spread all over, except for what constitutes Eastern parts of the country. And in their ascendancy was laid the seeds of this new hindu religion, as we know of it today.

    Each of these had played a role in creating what can be called Modern Hinduism

    Correction: Those who recite and pass the Vedas etc down the generations by recital are the Srautas, the Smartas handle other old texts.
    Continuing here for relevency,

    What I would like to know why you mention 9th century, is it because dating of Shankaracharya, However, several dates are being proposed for Shankaracharya.

    Several different dates have been proposed for Shankara:[22]

    509–477 BCE: This dating, is based on records of the heads of the Shankara's cardinal institutions Maṭhas at Dvaraka Pitha, the Govardhana matha and Badri and the Kanchi Peetham. According to their records, these monasteries were founded in Kali 2593 (509 BCE) by a person named Adi Shankara.[24] The successive heads of the Kanchi and all other major Hindu Advaita tradition monasteries have been called Shankaracharya leading to some confusion, discrepancies and scholarly disputes. The chronology stated in Kanchi matha texts recognizes five major Shankaras: Adi, Kripa, Ujjvala, Muka and Abhinava. According to the Kanchi matha tradition, it is "Abhinava Shankara" that western scholarship recognizes as the Advaita scholar Shankara, while the monastery continues to recognize its 509 BCE chronology.[24][25] The exact dates of birth of Adi Shankaracharya believed by four monastries are Dwaraka at 491 B.C., Jyotirmath at 485 B.C., Puri at 484 B.C. and Sringeri at 483 B.C.[26] Also, as per astronomical details given in books Shankara Satpatha, Shankara Vijaya, Brihat Shakara Vijaya and Prachina Shankara Vijaya, it is believed that Shankaracharya was born in 509 B.C.[citation needed] The Kashmiri king named Gopaditya built temples of Jyeteshwara and Shankaracharya, thus implying that the Shankaracharya must have visited Kashmir before his birth.[26]
    44–12 BCE: the commentator Anandagiri believed he was born at Chidambaram in 44 BCE and died in 12 BCE.[5]
    6th century CE: Telang placed him in this century. Sir R.G. Bhandarkar believed he was born in 680 CE.[5]
    c. 700 – c. 750 CE: Late 20th-century and early 21st-century scholarship tends to place Shankara's life of 32 years in the first half of the 8th century.[27][28] According to the Indologist and Asian Religions scholar John Koller, there is considerable controversy regarding the dates of Shankara – widely regarded as one of India's greatest thinkers, and "the best recent scholarship argues that he was born in 700 and died in 750 CE".[1]
    788–820 CE: This was proposed by early 20th scholars and was customarily accepted by scholars such as Max Müller, Macdonnel, Pathok, Deussen and Radhakrishna.[5][29][30] The date 788–820 is also among those considered acceptable by Swami Tapasyananda, though he raises a number of questions.[31] Though the 788–820 CE dates are widespread in 20th-century publications, recent scholarship has questioned the 788–820 CE dates.[27]
    805–897 CE: Venkiteswara not only places Shankara later than most, but also had the opinion that it would not have been possible for him to have achieved all the works apportioned to him, and has him live ninety two years.[5]
    The popularly-accepted dating places Shankara to be a scholar from the first half of the 8th century CE.[4][16]

  4. #53
    Registered Users
    Posts
    709
    Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Continuing here for relevency,

    What I would like to know why you mention 9th century, is it because dating of Shankaracharya, However, several dates are being proposed for Shankaracharya.
    If one knows where his body is buried then dna test and C14 test can give a good idea. It is an old tradition not to cremate young child and a Jivan Mukta as they have no attachment to the body, so he must have his Samadh somewhere.

  5. #54
    Registered Users
    Posts
    547
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-M241
    mtDNA (P)
    M5a2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Jatt1 View Post
    If one knows where his body is buried then dna test and C14 test can give a good idea. It is an old tradition not to cremate young child and a Jivan Mukta as they have no attachment to the body, so he must have his Samadh somewhere.
    Adi Sankara is believed to have died aged 32, at Kedarnath in the northern Indian state of Uttarakhand, a Hindu pilgrimage site in the Himalayas.[43][45] Texts say that he was last seen by his disciples behind the Kedarnath temple, walking in the Himalayas until he was not traced. Some texts locate his death in alternate locations such as Kanchipuram (Tamil Nadu) and somewhere in the state of Kerala.[40]
    There doesn't seem to be a consensus. But his samadhi seems to be behind Kedarnath temple.

    https://www.euttaranchal.com/tourism...ya-samadhi.php

    I don't know or think any samadhi of Spiritual gurus would be allowed by their followers for a DNA test.

    However, I am interested to know, based on this work, activities, and life stories if any modern historian has suggested that it more likely he lived at this period of time in history.
    Last edited by discreetmaverick; 01-11-2021 at 02:38 PM.

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to discreetmaverick For This Useful Post:

     Jatt1 (01-11-2021)

  7. #55
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,147
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a

    Pakistan Azad Kashmir India
    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    Continuing here for relevency,

    What I would like to know why you mention 9th century, is it because dating of Shankaracharya, However, several dates are being proposed for Shankaracharya.
    Yes, mostly because the 8th century is when the transition from Buddhist to a new religion, which was to become Hinduism, was becoming more pronounced in Kashmir. Two key elements in that were Shankracharya and King Lalitaditya. Brahminism likely became more commonplace following the two, into the 9th Century. And Shankaracharya is mostly believed to have lived in the 8th Century, by common beliefs.

  8. The Following User Says Thank You to Rahuls77 For This Useful Post:

     laltota (01-21-2021)

  9. #56
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,147
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a

    Pakistan Azad Kashmir India
    Quote Originally Posted by kpb View Post
    Yes, that was the reason I was told they all spoke Farsi (worked in the Mughal court). I’m assuming this is also why the Kashmiri Pandit lexicon has certain farsi words incorporated that the Kashmiri Muslim lexicon does not (i.e. sheer chai v noon chai, as one that immediately comes to mind). I believe I have an old book about Prauhn Koshur my grandfather gave to me. I will look into it and read up on it when I visit my parents, and share anything of interest.
    Kashmiri Muslims themselves have two extremes, the hallowed Syed types on one hand and the commoner Kashmiri on the other. A lot of Kashmiris are also thought to have mixed with the Afghans, called Ghazis. The case of Kashmiri Pandits is particularly interesting. The term Kashmiri Pandit itself was coined during Akbar's period, and it is likely that they flocked to his court towards the late 16th century, following Kashmir's conquest by the Mughals. And like most other Indians, from the Hindi Heartland, found value in Persian, the court language then, and learnt it, assimilating into the Mughal Administration, later hired as scribes and in other government services. Some of them would have carried the Mughal lifestyle bits back to the valley, hence some of their Persian lingo isn't found among the Kashmiri Muslims, who became more rooted in Kashmir, including the Sunni and Shia 'Syeds', than the Kashmiri Pandits.

  10. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Rahuls77 For This Useful Post:

     AlluGobi (01-21-2021),  karnalIroh (01-12-2021),  laltota (01-21-2021),  subzero85 (01-12-2021)

  11. #57
    Registered Users
    Posts
    547
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-M241
    mtDNA (P)
    M5a2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    Yes, mostly because the 8th century is when the transition from Buddhist to a new religion, which was to become Hinduism, was becoming more pronounced in Kashmir. Two key elements in that were Shankracharya and King Lalitaditya. Brahminism likely became more commonplace following the two, into the 9th Century. And Shankaracharya is mostly believed to have lived in the 8th Century, by common beliefs.
    They are/were many Shankaracharys in honors.

    For instance,
    Sri Jayendra Saraswathi, Shankaracharya of Kanchi
    Swami Abhinava Vidya Tīrtha, Shankaracharya of Sringeri
    Swami Bharati Tīrtha, Shankaracharya of Sringeri
    Swami Bharatikrishna Tīrtha, scholar; mathematician; first Sankaracharya to visit the West
    Swami Brahmananda Sarasvati, Srividya siddh Sankaracharya of Jyotirmaya Pitha, Shankara Matha, Badrinath
    Swami Shantanand Saraswati; Shankaracharya of Jyotirmaya Pitha
    Swami Swarupananda Sarasvati; Shankaracharya of Jyotirmaya Pitha, Sankara Matha, Badrinath
    Swami Candrasekhara Bharati, Shankaracharya of Sringeri
    Swami Saccidananda Bharati, Shankaracharya of Sringeri
    Swami Sacchidananda Bharati;Shankaracharya of Sringeri
    Swami Sacchidananda Shivabhinava Nṛusimha Bharati ; Shankaracharya of Sringeri
    Swami Vidyaranya Tīrtha, Shankaracharya of Sringeri
    The subsequent leaders of each of these four monasteries have come to be known as Shankaracharyas in honor of the math's founder, Adi Shankara.[4]
    During the time of Dharmakirti, Adi Shankara (569-537 BCE) defeated Buddhists in the debate. Taranatha writes; “Inflated with vanity, they entered into debate with Shankaracharya. In this the Buddhists were defeated and, as a result everything belonging to the twenty-five centers of the Doctrine was lost to Tirthikas (Brahmana philosophers) and the centers were deserted. About five hundred Upāsakas (Buddhists) had to enter the path of Tirthikas.”
    Dharmakīrti (fl. c. 6th or 7th century)
    According to them, Shankara's Advaita Vedanta philosophy did not differ significantly from Mahayana Buddhism. ... Yet at the same time, ironically, Shankara is criticized by Buddhist scholars as a “born enemy of Buddhists” due to his relentless attacks on their tradition.
    https://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/vie...text=rs_theses

    Why Shankaracharya/s as we can't know which Shankaracharya if four mutts were already established, was regarded as "born enemy of Buddhism" if he/they arrived at very decline.

    How did the Gupta empire laid seeds and how did it become popular, if Shankaracharya/s were no there during Gupta time then who were dedicated missionaries or preachers who could travel across length and breadth to spread the message, how did they provide a religious and spiritual alternative to make people shift in their beliefs?

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to discreetmaverick For This Useful Post:

     Jatt1 (01-12-2021)

  13. #58
    Gold Class Member
    Posts
    1,147
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1a

    Pakistan Azad Kashmir India
    Quote Originally Posted by discreetmaverick View Post
    They are/were many Shankaracharys in honors.

    For instance,










    https://scholarworks.gsu.edu/cgi/vie...text=rs_theses

    Why Shankaracharya/s as we can't know which Shankaracharya if four mutts were already established, was regarded as "born enemy of Buddhism" if he/they arrived at very decline.

    How did the Gupta empire laid seeds and how did it become popular, if Shankaracharya/s were no there during Gupta time then who were dedicated missionaries or preachers who could travel across length and breadth to spread the message, how did they provide a religious and spiritual alternative to make people shift in their beliefs?
    It is, at this time, generally believed, by most, that the Adi Shankaracharya was born sometime in early eighth century AD. The trouble with all narratives is that his first 'biographical' accounts emerged several hundred years after that. If the records of some of the Mutts are to be believed, he was born sometime in the 6th century BCE. That's the problem with federated historical accounts.

    Anyhow, Gupta period did see a decline in Buddhism, however probably not at the rate that it accelerated into, by the 8th and 9th centuries. Years after the decline of the Guptas, we had a Buddhist ruler in the Hindi heartland, Harshvardan, in the 7th century. And besides, apart from the elite, who patronised philosophers and scholars of high religious philosophies and speculation, the ordinary people, the masses, believed in myths, stories of the supernatural kind as part of their religious beliefs, and in those myths, Buddhist myths would not have been very different from what exists or must have existed in Hinduism in its early period, the Jataka tales are one major example of it. This is generally true of all religions. However the key distinction between Buddhist popular tradition and Hinduism is the strong deism prevalent within Hinduism.

  14. The Following User Says Thank You to Rahuls77 For This Useful Post:

     laltota (01-21-2021)

  15. #59
    Registered Users
    Posts
    547
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-M241
    mtDNA (P)
    M5a2a

    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    It is, at this time, generally believed, by most, that the Adi Shankaracharya was born sometime in early eighth century AD. The trouble with all narratives is that his first 'biographical' accounts emerged several hundred years after that. If the records of some of the Mutts are to be believed, he was born sometime in the 6th century BCE. That's the problem with federated historical accounts.

    Anyhow, Gupta period did see a decline in Buddhism, however probably not at the rate that it accelerated into, by the 8th and 9th centuries. Years after the decline of the Guptas, we had a Buddhist ruler in the Hindi heartland, Harshvardan, in the 7th century. And besides, apart from the elite, who patronised philosophers and scholars of high religious philosophies and speculation, the ordinary people, the masses, believed in myths, stories of the supernatural kind as part of their religious beliefs, and in those myths, Buddhist myths would not have been very different from what exists or must have existed in Hinduism in its early period, the Jataka tales are one major example of it. This is generally true of all religions. However the key distinction between Buddhist popular tradition and Hinduism is the strong deism prevalent within Hinduism.
    Here is the answer from a stack exchange member, seems he answers the most likely reasons for popular/general belief for dating shankaracharya to somewhere between 750 to 850 CE.

    https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/q...ar%C4%81charya


    As per one of the given reason for it

    Sringeri mutt established by Shankara, records Shankara was born in 14th year from the era of Vikramadhitya. It is concluded that Vikram era started in 57 BC, so Adi Shankara born somewhere 13-14 years after 57 BC. But this mutt is in the south, Vikramaditya of Ujjain never ruled southern India, even if he was a historical figure. So, Karnataka was ruled by 2 Vikramadhityas of Chalukhyas. One of them lived in 7th century AD and another king ruled in 8th century AD. So,there is a huge possibility that Sringeri mutt might have recorded Chalukhya dynasty Vikramadhityas.

    To begin with, anyone who wants to promote a new religion/philosophy does not need a king who is ruling that territory as long he/she is not prevented from doing is enough and Bt, royal patronage definitely is plus and helps in making an impact in a shorter period of time.

    Let us look at the claim regarding Vikramaditya.

    Vikramadiya of ujjain was a legendary ruler. however, Vikramaditya was used as a title by Chandragupta II

    Chandragupta II (Gupta script: Gupta allahabad c.svgGupta allahabad ndr.jpgGupta allahabad gu.jpgGupta allahabad pt.jpg Cha-ndra-gu-pta, r. c. 380 – c. 415 CE), also known by his title Vikramaditya, was one of the most powerful emperors of the Gupta Empire in northern India.
    Though Chandragupta II did not rule in Srigenri,he had matrimonal alliance with Kadambas.

    The Tālagunda pillar inscription is an epigraphic record in Sanskrit giving an account of the Kadamba dynasty. It was set up in the time of the Kadamba king Śāntivarma (c. 455-60)
    The Talagunda pillar inscription suggests that the daughters of the Kadamba king Kakusthavarman, married into other royal families, including that of the Guptas.[44][43]
    Wiki also says,

    While Kakusthavarman was a contemporary of Chandragupta's son Kumaragupta I,[44] it is noteworthy that some medieval chiefs of present-day Karnataka (where the Kadambas ruled) claimed descent from Chandragupta.[43]
    This is wrong as Kakusthavarman was borther of Raghu , who as a contemporary of Chandragupta, so, he was indeed contemporary.

    Both Talagunda and Sringeri are nearby places in the same district of Shimoga, both were part of Kadambas.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talagu...ar_inscription

    Something to note, Chutus, who were predessors of Kadamabas, who ruled from the same place, banavasi, were buddishts, even connected with Kadamas

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutu_dynasty

    According to the Talagunda and the Gudnapur inscriptions, they belonged to the Manavya Gotra and were Haritiputrās ("descendants of Hariti lineage"), which connected them to the native Chutus of Banavasi, a vassal of the Satavahana empire.[7][8]
    Even Kakukasvarma seems to be named after one of the seven buddas, Kakusandha.

    Moreover, name Kadama could be inspired from Buddist sources.

    In Theravada Buddhism, the kadamba tree was where Sumedha Buddha achieved enlightenment.
    Did the matrimonial alliance with gupta and guptas promotion of Hinduism encouraged Kadambas to convert to and become patrons of Hinduism?

Page 6 of 6 FirstFirst ... 456

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 205
    Last Post: 11-02-2019, 07:34 PM
  2. Replies: 161
    Last Post: 09-08-2019, 10:50 PM
  3. Replies: 108
    Last Post: 12-05-2018, 09:16 AM
  4. Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-13-2016, 08:50 PM
  5. Replies: 39
    Last Post: 07-21-2014, 02:29 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •