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Thread: Greek Z2103 - its age, distribution and ancient ethnic identity

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    Greek Z2103 - its age, distribution and ancient ethnic identity

    Can anyone tell me anything about Greek Z2103. I am curious to understand where it fits in in the complex history of Greece. I get the basic picture that it wasnt there in the Neolithic and must have arrived from the bronze age onward. I'd be curious to know if it was associated with the earlier Bronze Age, with connections north to the Balkans or east to Anatolia, the Mycenaean era or the supposed Doric invasions. Also whether the clades link Greek Z2103 to Armenians or whoever. I have a reasonable understanding of the archaeology of Greece but I havent a clue about its DNA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alan View Post
    Can anyone tell me anything about Greek Z2103. I am curious to understand where it fits in in the complex history of Greece. I get the basic picture that it wasnt there in the Neolithic and must have arrived from the bronze age onward. I'd be curious to know if it was associated with the earlier Bronze Age, with connections north to the Balkans or east to Anatolia, the Mycenaean era or the supposed Doric invasions. Also whether the clades link Greek Z2103 to Armenians or whoever. I have a reasonable understanding of the archaeology of Greece but I havent a clue about its DNA.
    I have been trying to figure this out too, even by looking at Z2103 in Southern Italy, unfortunately Greece is extremely undertested and odds are we might find out first via ancient dna than modern, but if I had to guess either something very close to Yamnaya's Y like KMS67.

    The most common one today or the one most tested BY611 definitely post dates Ancient Greeks.
    My Y Line: J2a-L210>Z489>Z482>Y15222>Y15245

    My Maternal Y: R1b-U152>Z36>Y156527

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandfather's Mother's line) Y: R1b-U152>L2

    Great Grandparent (Maternal Grandmother's Mother's line) Y: I2-P78>A427>S23612

    Other Y lines Confirmed: 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-S25258>SK1336, 3x GG on Maternal side: J2a-M67, 4x GG on Maternal side: R1b-PF7562, 5x GG on Maternal side: E-V13, 5x GG on Maternal side: R2-L266

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    Afanasievo and Catacomb both have R1b-z2109 lines, Yamnaya agrees to R1b-KMS67.

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    I am Z2103>Y155609 (BY175662) from Thrace.

    My records/literature research point to Thessaly, but recently I spoke with an Armenian Project admin. who thinks it might be a clade connected to Armenian Byzantine presence in Thrace and more specifically somehow related to Prince Grigorios Pakourianos' entourage (from Tao/Tayk) in Bachkovo.

    The TMRCA I have is with a Chechen at 3500 ybp, so not very helpful.

    I am waiting for potential matches, because nothing is concrete 100%, so be my guest with your guesses.
    dosas: 56.25% Greek_Macedonia + 43.75% Greek_Trabzon @ 1.769
    wife: 50% English + 50% Irish @ 1.837
    kid1: 56.25% English + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.817
    kid2: 56.25% English_Cornwall + 43.75% Greek_Cappadocia @ 1.866

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    Great Question! I too would like to know what events/personage which enabled it to split off the L23 branch of Y. I have tested downtree of Z2103.
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    While BY611 is too young, it's sister clade Y5587 has several lines in Bulgaria, together they have a TMRCA of 4600ybp on Yfull, seems to me they could have a connection with arrival of IE in the Balkans & Greece. The rest of CTS1450 looks very Western European which might suggest a split where part went to the Balkans and another part got involved in corded ware or something like that.
    While it's not Z2103 but rather it's 'uncle', I would also think R1b-PF7562/PF7563 has a strong connection with arrival of IE in the Balkans & Greece. There is an obvious link with Armenia as every branch has samples from there, but at the same time nearly every branch of PF7563 has Balkans samples, and the group is also present in Greece. See BY16680 (TMRCA 4500BP), with a Serbian, a Romanian and a Kosovarian in three seperate branches, next to an Ashkenazi group. Z29764 (TMRCA 4500BP) has two seperate branches with Albanians, BY141457 has an Albanian and a Bulgarian. I'm sure if we had more testing for Greece they would also show up there.

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    I think that because Armenian is the closest to Hellenic the Brygian>Phrygian>Armenian thing is very likely and that would mean the orginal Hellenic speakers would have been Z2103>L277, Z2103>L584 and PF7562 but since Greece is the worst tested country in the Balkans and probably Europe its very hard to say anything, i really dont know what they are waiting for someone should start pushing people to get tested maybe Dosas.

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    I am a Greek with a paternal origin from Chios (17th century), and based on my original surname (Vafeiadis), a Pontic ultimate origin is deduced. My haplogroup is R-CTS9219, would you guys have any ideas on its origin? I see it is on a different branch from the "Balkan" Z2103.

    Currently impossible for me to get further tested due to financial limitations...

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    Quote Originally Posted by XXD View Post
    I am a Greek with a paternal origin from Chios (17th century), and based on my original surname (Vafeiadis), a Pontic ultimate origin is deduced. My haplogroup is R-CTS9219, would you guys have any ideas on its origin? I see it is on a different branch from the "Balkan" Z2103.

    Currently impossible for me to get further tested due to financial limitations...
    Do you have any autosomal results to show? Vafeiadis is 100% a Pontic Greek surname and very frenquent in western Pontus. Can you link eurogenes K13?

    As for you haplogroup it is prolly from the BA. It might be connected with many people, like Greeks, Anatolians, Armenians, Thracians etc.But It can be arrived with migrations or barbarians in west Asia.
    Last edited by Johnny ola; 11-30-2020 at 09:28 AM.

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