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Thread: Brazilian with Y192191 (FT228953) Y DNA

  1. #1
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    Brazilian with Y192191 (FT228953) Y DNA

    Good morning to all:

    I need a help to discover more about my origins: I made in the beginning of this year the Big Y test of FTDNA, and the results was J-Y192191 (or J-FT228953), a subclade linked at J-Y8537, that is tipically arab.

    I transfer the results to Yfull site (YF71874), and my and another guy of Brazil are the only ocidental samples below of the Y8537 three, that have almost 600 samples (all of them from middle east and north africa, except us)

    My paternal family (Lucena) is very ancient in Brazil, with roots in Spain (city of Lucena, in Andaluzia) and with imigration to Portugal in the XV century and Brazil in the XVI century, and we don’t have any ancestor in the last five centuries with arabian roots.

    I read about the J1 haplogroup in Spain and Portugal, and noted that is not common, mainly with this especific recent arab subclades (this Y192191 mutation was formed 1350 years ago, in the estimative of Yfull).

    Someone can help me to solve this mistery?

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Paulo Lucena For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (11-22-2020),  alchemist223 (11-21-2020),  Caius Agrippa (11-21-2020),  Jatt1 (11-26-2020),  Piquerobi (11-20-2020),  Power77 (11-25-2020),  RCO (11-20-2020),  Ruderico (12-16-2020)

  3. #2
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    Y-DNA (P)
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    K1a10a

    United States of America England
    Mystery? Your branch is 800 years old. Who ruled Iberia 800 years ago?

  4. #3
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    I know.

    And this is good to unmake the mith that the arabs don’t leave almost none genetic heritage in Ibéria.

    In fact, I think that we have many J1 haplogroups descendants in all Northeast of Brazil.

    But the most part of the muslins that ruled the region was from North Africa (haplogroup E, not J), not Middle East.

    The true mistery is what arab tribe (I have many matches from Saudi Arabia and Iraq) I have kinship.

    Some clues indicate to Hawazin tribe, from Hijaz (close to Meca and Medina).

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  6. #4
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    H1ao1

    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    Bem-vindo Paulo !

    You are in the middle of large Arab tribes so the connection is direct. I hope we can find more samples from your cluster in the next years in order to detect your trail in Iberia or Portugal/Spain.
    https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y192191/
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

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     Paulo Lucena (11-20-2020)

  8. #5
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    Yes Ricardo, I hope so!

    The genetic study is a exercise of patience.

    I think that in some moment will arise a sample from Iberia and/or Saudi Arabia/Iraq making the link between my case and the arabs.

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     RCO (11-20-2020)

  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paulo Lucena View Post
    I think that in some moment will arise a sample from Iberia and/or Saudi Arabia/Iraq making the link between my case and the arabs.
    I know it is obvious that your haplogroup reached Brazil from Iberia but the question still stands if the Iberian branch in which your haplogroup originated still exists in Iberia. Take into consideration that near half of the Portuguese population moved to Brazil in the 1500-1822 period, it is definitely the most important demographic event in Portuguese history, outliers that do not exist in Portugal anymore could have all ended up in Brazil.

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  12. #7
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    It’s a good point, Caius. I didn’t know about this percentage of portuguese imigration to Brazil, is amazing.

    The guy that share the subclade Y-192191 with me I didn’t know until this year, and we don’t have any ancestor in common at least in the last two centuries.

    I think too that maybe some of colonial families in Brazil has escaped from Portugal because ethnic/religious questions, and find here a place to maintain your next generations in peace.

    And we only listen about New christian families like jewish.

    But my case shows that the “mouros” too converted in christians and went to Brazil, and about this cases we have almost a silence in the Academy.

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  14. #8
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    What is odd is that you have not found (so far) matches among Iberians or among Iberian descendants in Latin America outside Brazil. There is the possibility, even if arguably small, judging by that, that it could come from an unknown person who somehow came directly from the Islamic world to Brazil. Time will tell.

    This is from a study on J-L222 and Iberia:

    J1a2b2a-L222.2 is limited to the Arabian Peninsula and North Africa with its highest frequencies in the Sfax population of Tunisia (25.0%), Beja, Tunisia (15.3%) and Morocco (16.7%), all in Northwest Africa. This mutation was not detected in the Iberian Peninsula in the present study. The genealogical ages for this mutation range from 2.10 ± 0.72 in the population of Egypt to 1.20 ± 0.56 in Oman, Arabia. Although these dates represent approximations, they are indicative of a recent mutational event possibly just prior to the Muslim conquest of northern Africa and the Islamic incursion into Iberia. The higher frequencies of L222.2 in Qatar (39.0%) may reflect its genesis in the Arabian region and a subsequent westward clinal dispersal. Therefore, just like the comparable STR diversity under the M81 mutation in Iberia and North Africa may be indicative of multiple, possibly pre-Islamic migration of North Africans into Iberia, the absence of L222.2 in Spain is congruent with gene flow across the Strait of Gibraltar prior to the L222.2 mutation or genetic drift that deleted the mutation in Iberia.
    From Arabia to Iberia: A Y chromosome perspective, 2015, Regueiro et al
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25701402

    A Spaniard on this forum discovered he carries J-L222:

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....hlight=Mexican
    Last edited by Piquerobi; 11-21-2020 at 04:37 PM.

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  16. #9
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    Suebi Kingdom Portugal 1143 Portugal 1485 Portugal Order of Christ Brazilian Empire Brazil
    They have Iberian surnames, they don't know about any recent immigration to Brazil from MENA (Middle East and North Africa) countries, both Brazilians have TMRCA 800 ybp in a large and expansionist Arab branch related to the first Muslim conquests and they don't have visible Arab or MENA autosomal components/proportions, so the common ancestor lived in Iberia and probably in the end of Islamic Period, if they can't find other Iberian matches that could be related to the same situation of former Jewish/Moor/Arab lineages crackdown in Iberia after the Reconquista and the expulsion of non-Catholics.
    J1 FGC5987 to FGC6175 (188 new SNPs)
    MDKAs before Colonial Brazil
    Y-DNA - Milhazes, Barcelos, Minho, Portugal.
    mtDNA - Ilha Terceira, Azores, Portugal
    North_Swedish + PT + PT + PT @ 3.96 EUtest 4

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  18. #10
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    Still Latin America has a very large population and matches should appear. Probably they will. As for names, they could be changed in Brazil. If the origins are in our colonial period, then memories of it could have been lost.

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