Additional Modern Greek Averages

[trdbr1234]

Combination of mainland Greeks and Greek islanders. Smyrna and Costantinoupoli were cosmopolitan cities during the Ottoman times. Many Greeks from various parts of Greece were settled there.Izmir Greeks are like Greek islanders but with a more mainland Greek gene flow,hence their high Balkan/Slavic adixture.

Im curious. Do Izmir Greek show a high degree of variability between individuals? If that is true, their deviation should be high. As far as I am aware, Greek presence in Izmir wasn't only in the city, but surrounding areas as well.

[Johnny ola]

Im curious. Do Izmir Greek show a high degree of variability between individuals? If that is true, their deviation should be high. As far as I am aware, Greek presence in Izmir wasn't only in the city, but surrounding areas as well.

Sadly,we do not have enough samples from Anatolian Greeks.Also,if i am not mistaken most of them coming from Smyrna.Some samples i have seen from Costantinoupoli coming closer to Thracian/East Rumelia Greeks and plotting closer with Bulgarians in some way.

[Andrewid]

Just the G25 Greek samples here. What stands out to me are:

1. Individual Dodecanese samples overlapping with Cypriots
2. Cretan samples now stretch from Smyrna to Kos.

My question for our more computer savvy users here is whether or not we can use these new individual samples if they are low res, or is the distribution we are seeing in individual Cretan samples just various amounts of error in multiple directions due to being low res samples?

One of my early hypotheses was that Cretans would show nearly the full range of genetic diversity found in the Aegean Islands, and that smaller islands would show a subset of this diversity due genetic drift/founder effect caused by relatively recent depopulation/repopulation events, especially in the NE Aegean islands which had a very rough time during Ottoman occupation. Large islands (Crete, Cyprus) and the bigger cities of Asia Minor (like Smyrna) could have been reservoirs of these genetic profiles that repopulated the islands when conditions improved. The first batch of Crete samples did not support this hypothesis, they clustered pretty tightly together. This new batch of samples would seem to bring the hypothesis back into play so long as the new individual samples can be used in this way.

There is definitely something in what you say about large Greek islands providing a ready and accessible pool of populations to transfer. Some of these transfers may not be recorded but we do know of one major one in the 7th century by Justinian II who ordered the transfer of Cypriot Greeks to the Hellespont where they formed Nea Ioustinianoupolis- a title Archbishops of Cyprus have carried in their title ever since. We know from recent research that the Knights Templers in Rhodes encouraged immigration from, inter alia, Cyprus. One village in Rhodes between Rhodes Town and Lindos even has a Cypriot founding narrative. We've already discussed the closeness of the Dodecanese dialects to Cypriot Greek, which may imply some kind of demographic highway between the two regions.

These new Dodecanesian results may not, after all, be from Rhodes alone. But they are probably heavily Rhodes weighted, which would explain the shift towards Cyprus. We have been observing this ourselves by comparing Cypriot results, such as my own, to Rhodes results on non-G25 calculators. The Cypriots on G25 need to be increased in number in order to get a fully representative sample, and to be identified according to ethnoreligious group. Non-reference individuals, such as myself, tend to shift slightly to Kos or the Dodecanese too compared to the current G25 Cypriot average. I wouldn't be surprised if I plot nearer to the Kos or Dodecanese averages than one of these new Dodecanese individuals you have plotted.

I am still eagerly awaiting reliable Kastellorizo results. Though politically a part of the Dodecanese, Kastellorizo, Ro and Strongyli form a separate small archipelago further east. Strongyli is actually the nearest Greek island to Cyprus at about 165 miles from Cape Akamas in northern Paphos. Would Kastellorizo results shift further to Cyprus than Rhodes, however slightly? The dialect is certainly close. Genes often follow geography. But it's all conjecture for the moment, and the island population is so small that it is more liable to historic deviation because of an incoming demographic pulse.

Btw, if you stand back a bit from Greekscholar's PCA, the Hellenic leg and foot continuum is clearly visible

[Marko47]

I am curious to know the differences between the categories "Greek_Central_Anatolia" and "Greek_Cappadocia."

[Johnny ola]

I am curious to know the differences between the categories "Greek_Central_Anatolia" and "Greek_Cappadocia."

Not big. Western Cappadocia is closer to Greek islanders and Cyprus. They are less west Asian admixed. Eastern Cappadocians are closer to Trabzon and Armenian.They are more influenced from a transcaucasus source(prolly Kura-Araxes). Cappadocians have a decent steppe admixture. I think during the IA or maybe later they received a gene flow from Phrygians, Lydians or Galatians maybe? But overall, most of their ancestry is Bronze Age Anatolian.

[Marko47]

Just wanted to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying correctly. "Greek_Central_Anatolia" would be the Western Cappadocians, whereas "Greek_Cappadocia" would be the Eastern Cappadocians. Is that right?

[Johnny ola]

Just wanted to make sure I'm understanding what you're saying correctly. "Greek_Central_Anatolia" would be the Western Cappadocians, whereas "Greek_Cappadocia" would be the Eastern Cappadocians. Is that right?

Greek Cappadocia samples are all from Kayseri Greeks, thus from eastern Cappadocia. The two genetically more western-leaning Greek Central Anatolia samples are from more western parts, the other one is from Kayseri again.

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[XXD]

Not sure if this has been clarified in previous threads, but the Levantine ancestry that infiltrates the Greek speaking world during the Imperial Roman times may well be the same with the one of Rome: Syrians and Syrian (admixed) Greeks. It would be interesting to understand why and how such a massive immigration took place, but from what I have been reading in all of your excellent threads, it added significantly to the ancestry of Greeks and Romans (particularly the ones living in Rome, as indicated in the recent ancient studies).

This massive immigration led Juvenal to complain about the change of the demography of his beloved Rome: syrus in tiberim defluxit orontes (the Syrian Orontes has flooded Tiber).

In fact, "Achaean(classic)" and "Oriental" Greeks may have formed up to 70% of the population of Rome, and Juvenal actually distinguished the two populations (with regards to racist stereotypes :p ).

https://www.jstor.org/stable/2459150...o_tab_contents

What do you guys think?

[Michalis Moriopoulos]

Greek Cappadocia samples are all from Kayseri Greeks, thus from eastern Cappadocia. The two genetically more western-leaning Greek Central Anatolia samples are from more western parts, the other one is from Kayseri again.

If not Kayseri, do you know which province the two more western samples can be associated with? I've searched for the sample numbers online but I can't find a reference that might reveal that info.

[Kaspias]

If not Kayseri, do you know which province the two more western samples can be associated with? I've searched for the sample numbers online but I can't find a reference that might reveal that info.

Niğde probably.