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Thread: Additional Modern Greek Averages

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    I noticed that also, Peloponnese is divided. I think Crete would show a divide as well if Chania was compared to Heraklion.
    Heraklio average seems slightly less West Asian

    Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
    A: Greek_Crete
    B: Crete
    C: ↴
    0.89187218 Dodecanese
    0.92881147 Cappadocia
    0.93545118 Cypriot
    0.94357946 Syrian_Jew
    0.94625496 Karaite_Egypt
    0.95043409 Sephardic_Jew
    0.95278642 Druze
    0.95428497 Lebanese_Druze
    0.95435779 Romaniote_Jew
    0.95668212 Iraqi_Jew
    0.95740326 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.95766084 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.95838062 Lebanese_Christian
    0.96069788 Armenian
    0.96163045 Samaritan
    0.96269718 Iranian_Jew
    0.96607460 Assyrian
    0.96662183 Greek_Trabzon
    0.96669694 Turkish_Trabzon
    0.96715517 Georgian_Jew
    0.96807427 Syrian
    0.97185838 Mountain_Jew
    0.97305038 Tunisian_Jew
    0.97358625 Armenian_Hemsheni
    0.97515289 Libyan_Jew

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by xripkan View Post
    Heraklio average seems slightly less West Asian

    Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↑
    A: Greek_Crete
    B: Crete
    C: ↴
    0.89187218 Dodecanese
    0.92881147 Cappadocia
    0.93545118 Cypriot
    0.94357946 Syrian_Jew
    0.94625496 Karaite_Egypt
    0.95043409 Sephardic_Jew
    0.95278642 Druze
    0.95428497 Lebanese_Druze
    0.95435779 Romaniote_Jew
    0.95668212 Iraqi_Jew
    0.95740326 Greek_Central_Anatolia
    0.95766084 Lebanese_Muslim
    0.95838062 Lebanese_Christian
    0.96069788 Armenian
    0.96163045 Samaritan
    0.96269718 Iranian_Jew
    0.96607460 Assyrian
    0.96662183 Greek_Trabzon
    0.96669694 Turkish_Trabzon
    0.96715517 Georgian_Jew
    0.96807427 Syrian
    0.97185838 Mountain_Jew
    0.97305038 Tunisian_Jew
    0.97358625 Armenian_Hemsheni
    0.97515289 Libyan_Jew
    I figured western Crete would have more mainland Greece influence giving it a little higher Slavic type pull.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by JerryS. View Post
    I figured western Crete would have more mainland Greece influence giving it a little higher Slavic type pull.
    Heraklio seems to me shifted towards Souther Italy mostly. I am not sure there is higher East European-like input here.


    Distance ratio: ( AC / BC ) ↓
    A: Greek_Crete
    B: Crete
    C: ↴
    1.22560939 Greek_Izmir
    1.22394624 Italian_Basilicata
    1.16409239 SE_Laconia
    1.15077314 Italian_Campania
    1.14374834 Italian_Molise
    1.13655098 Italian_Apulia
    1.13352722 Greek_Peloponnese
    1.13194157 Italian_Calabria
    1.13119153 Ashkenazi_Belarussia
    1.12790961 Italian_Abruzzo
    1.12045268 Ashkenazi_Lithuania
    1.11399206 Peloponnese
    1.09742861 Italian_Umbria
    1.09707610 Ashkenazi_Russia
    1.08758585 Italian_Marche
    1.08605582 East_Rumelia
    1.07904996 Greek_Central_Macedonia
    1.07846718 Italian_Lazio
    1.07569621 Greek_Thessaly
    1.07407818 Albanian
    1.07400429 Italian_Tuscany
    1.06784402 Swiss_Italian
    1.06195785 Ashkenazi_Ukraine
    1.06178684 Macedonia
    1.06144180 Ashkenazi_Poland

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  6. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by pegasus View Post
    This would imply Cappadocian Greeks are later Hellenized Luwians or Hittites. Would the Turkified locals in this region have the same profile similar to the scenario with those in Trabzon?


    "sample": "Greek Central Anatolia:Average",
    "distance": 1.1732,
    "Arslantepe_LC": 56,
    "Isparta_EBA": 30,
    "RUS_Catacomb": 14
    Both Greeks and Turks from Cappadocia are pretty much the same with exception the visible east eurasian in the later. Trabzon Greeks and Turks(who are pretty much the same people) have Also 'Bronze Age Anatolian' like input, but their Caucasus admixture pulls them towards Armenians and Georgians. Trabzon is actually modeling as half Georgian and half Cappadocian Greek. But Cappadocian Greeks are way more steppe admixed.I think they received more steppe DNA from Phrygians-Lydians during the IA or they mixed With Celts(Galatians) taking serious Some R1b(Italo-Celtic) markers among them.

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  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by xripkan View Post
    The new samples confirm what we were discussing in the other thread about Peloponnese. There are academic samples who plot with Western Anatolian Greeks and other who plot with Northern Greeks.
    Neapoli/SE Lakonian cluster is a proof that there are other than Maniots groups in Peloponnese which plot next to Southern Italy.
    Exactly. I think i was the First here saying that Peloponnese is not a homogenous province With only One clushter.Besides that, we have not seen samples from the whole Peloponnesus. There are regions and cities unsampled yet. Btw, We need more samples from Epirus and western Greece(Agrinio, Mesollogi etc). These areas are poor tested.

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  10. #26
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    Xripkan, Btw i am thinking if the Macedonian samples have Some Pontic or Anatolian Greek admixture. They are indeed in Some way more West Asian admixed. The samples are all of them coming from Thessaloniki?

  11. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Xripkan, Btw i am thinking if the Macedonian samples have Some Pontic or Anatolian Greek admixture. They are indeed in Some way more West Asian admixed. The samples are all of them coming from Thessaloniki?
    Yes, they are Caucasus/Anatolia shifted compared to old Greek Macedonian reference. But I don't think it is recent Anatolian/Pontic admixture because they plot as typical Northern Mainlanders.

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: Greek_Central_Macedonia
    B: Macedonia
    C: ↴
    0.00369744 Azeri_Turkey
    0.00337642 Georgian_Imer
    0.00336317 Cappadocia
    0.00318852 Greek_Trabzon
    0.00291064 Ossetian
    0.00285660 Armenian
    0.00274974 Turkish_Trabzon
    0.00274117 Iranian_Mazandarani
    0.00272970 Abkhasian
    0.00271996 Georgian_Laz
    0.00257461 Sicilian_East
    0.00256302 Iranian_Lor
    0.00255462 Ingushian
    0.00252124 Armenian_Hemsheni
    0.00249071 Iranian_Jew
    0.00244546 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.00242656 Adygei
    0.00242602 North_Ossetian
    0.00242564 Greek_Crete
    0.00236174 Kabardin
    0.00236001 Circassian
    0.00232523 Iraqi_Jew
    0.00232341 Samaritan
    0.00231579 Greek_Thessaly
    0.00226005 Cherkes

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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by xripkan View Post
    Yes, they are Caucasus/Anatolia shifted compared to old Greek Macedonian reference. But I don't think it is recent Anatolian/Pontic admixture because they plot as typical Northern Mainlanders.

    Distance difference: ( AC - BC ) ↓
    A: Greek_Central_Macedonia
    B: Macedonia
    C: ↴
    0.00369744 Azeri_Turkey
    0.00337642 Georgian_Imer
    0.00336317 Cappadocia
    0.00318852 Greek_Trabzon
    0.00291064 Ossetian
    0.00285660 Armenian
    0.00274974 Turkish_Trabzon
    0.00274117 Iranian_Mazandarani
    0.00272970 Abkhasian
    0.00271996 Georgian_Laz
    0.00257461 Sicilian_East
    0.00256302 Iranian_Lor
    0.00255462 Ingushian
    0.00252124 Armenian_Hemsheni
    0.00249071 Iranian_Jew
    0.00244546 Azeri_Dagestan
    0.00242656 Adygei
    0.00242602 North_Ossetian
    0.00242564 Greek_Crete
    0.00236174 Kabardin
    0.00236001 Circassian
    0.00232523 Iraqi_Jew
    0.00232341 Samaritan
    0.00231579 Greek_Thessaly
    0.00226005 Cherkes

    Indeed.It seems even the very northern mainland Greeks if you subtract their Slavic-Balkanic profile they will shown up.. in some way more BA Anatolian.It is very likely a situation similar to Rome paper to be happened in mainland as well.Repopulations and migrations from west Asia straightway to Balkans.On the other hand,i am skeptical if such admixtures-components started to taking place much earlier than Roman-Byzantium ages.Anyway,this mystery can be solve only with ancient DNA.I hope Lazaridis and Reich's team in general to publish a 'paper-study' only for Greece at sometime.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Xripkan, Btw i am thinking if the Macedonian samples have Some Pontic or Anatolian Greek admixture. They are indeed in Some way more West Asian admixed. The samples are all of them coming from Thessaloniki?
    Simple two way model comparing new and pre-exsting samples:



    So even some of the samples in the older average can have it. Who knows if it's recent or ancient, or due to lower coverage/noise.

    If anybody spots super clear outliers it may be best to remove them from the average. But these aren't too far off and the averages seem fine so I'm not sure.
    Code:
    23abc_AncestryDNA_scaled,0.110408,0.151314,-0.0290383,-0.0507112,0.0018465,-0.0156179,-0.00305514,-0.00138456,-0.00899905,0.00911181,0.00243583,-0.00149867,-0.00431116,0.00344057,-0.00773606,0.00106072,0.00195576,0.00152026,0.00251396,-0.00550264,-0.00786113,-0.00197844,0.0025882,0.00168699,0.000957998

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  16. #30
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    Looking at the plots, some of the members posted, it seems there is indeed a divide between 23abc's Peloponnesian and Laconian samples.

    As it was correctly pointed out, the first one plots next to/right into the Albanian/Thessaly cluster, whereas the second further South, more like a South Italian population.

    I find this division intriguing, as well as its historical implications, maybe we can learn more about the sampling of the "Peloponnesian" sampling in this study?

    Is this division a result of South Slavic/Albanian-Arvanitic settlement in the area, did some places like the Laconian samples remained unaffected by it?
    Last edited by dosas; 11-21-2020 at 04:44 PM.
    55.8% Greek Central Macedonia + 44.2% Greek Trabzon @ 1.46

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