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Thread: Eneolithic steppe DNA

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    Eneolithic steppe DNA

    I long awaited a paper to discuss specifically the whole argument of steppe ancient DNA. From Eurogenes:

    http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/0...ic-steppe.html

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    Among other important observations from Generalissimo is this to be highlighted:


    I'm pretty sure that when we find out why the Yamnaya cluster is so deliberately shifted away from the Khvalynsk cline, we'll also discover how the early Corded Ware and Yamnaya populations formed. For now, I strongly suspect that this has something to do with gene flow from the western edge of the PC steppe and the ethnogenesis of the Sredny Stog culture, which was located just west of the Khvalynsk culture.

    This coupled with rumours that R1b Z103 has been found in Sredni Stog also.
    Last edited by etrusco; 05-03-2020 at 09:57 AM.

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    The gene flow from the westernmost edge of the Pontic steppe was preceded by a strong cultural impact from the same zone: everyone can evaluate how archeology and genetics fit into one another like a perfect puzzle.


    https://www.academia.edu/35556491/Th..._to_Eneolithic

    From the abstract.

    This article is devoted to cultural contacts of steppe population and Balkan people about 5300–4800 BC. Numerous imports (adornments from copper, cornelian, marine shells, pots, plates from the bone and nacre, pendants from the teeth of red deer), radical changes in the cultural traditions (new type ornamental compositions, flexed inhumations, stone in graves and above them, pits with alcove) and imitation of pottery have been fxed for the Late Neolithic in the Eastern European steppe. Acquaintance with first metal and strong western impact caused the formation of the new Sredniy Stog culture.

    the words highlight that we are not talking about a couple of pottery traveling from west to east but an entire set of new ideas involving in particular the religious sphere.
    That is why we are talking about an ethnogesis and not an average cultural influence
    Last edited by etrusco; 05-03-2020 at 10:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    Among other important observations from Generalissimo is this to be highlighted:


    I'm pretty sure that when we find out why the Yamnaya cluster is so deliberately shifted away from the Khvalynsk cline, we'll also discover how the early Corded Ware and Yamnaya populations formed. For now, I strongly suspect that this has something to do with gene flow from the western edge of the PC steppe and the ethnogenesis of the Sredny Stog culture, which was located just west of the Khvalynsk culture.

    This coupled with rumours that R1b Z103 has been found in Sredni Stog also.
    we have also Z93 already in Sredny Stog and when rumours about R1b-M269 get confirmed than we have an Eneolithic culture with R1a-M417 and R1b-M269 what would be a very strong argument for it being the PIE culture. Khvalynsk looks like a dead end especially because it had some WSHG and according to rumours no R1b-M269 and no R1a-M417 was found among them.

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    Just follow the straight line of the Khvalynsk cline and you shall find the truth in the CHG_NearEastern_Iranian admixture around the Caspian Sea, not Maykop in a different position and angle.
    The Caspian Sea was an ancient corridor, observe the longships and boats in the Gobustan Rock Art showing relationship between North and South, West and East shores.

    Caspian Sea PIE.jpg

    "Petroglyphs in Gobustan dating about 5,000 to 8,000 years back contain longships similar to Viking ships.[7][8] The discovery of ship illustrations among the rock paintings in Gobustan shows its relationship with the Mediterranean and the European continent". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gobustan_Rock_Art
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    Quote Originally Posted by RCO View Post
    Just follow the straight line of the Khvalynsk cline and
    ...
    observe the longships and boats in the Gobustan Rock Art
    I don't really think extending "the straight line of the Khvalynsk cline" is warranted, without PCA evidence. So I disagree with your actual point. But the Volga does flow to the Caspian; and the boats in that rock art are pertinent to the further use that could have been made, that early, of that water route.

    Also, thanks for the larger and more legible version of the basic map from Davidski's blog. I guess I should trust the Force and try to enlarge his PCA maps, myself. I'm rarely able to read the map legend, and thereby interpret the sea of little dots.

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    Posted at Eurogenes by Davidski:

    "According to Anthony:

    - there's plenty of R1b1a in Khvalynsk samples, but no mention by Anthony of any R1b-M269, which is in line with my info, and obviously makes it tricky to directly link Yamnaya males to Khvalynsk

    - he says that at least five Khvalynsk males belong to Q1a1b, and some of them are from very rich graves

    - other Y-haplogroups in the Khvalynsk samples include R1a1, J1 and I2a2a

    - he potentially links the J1 to a recent influx of CHG-related ancestry into the steppes, which may or may not be correct considering that there's earlier J1 in Eastern Euro hunter-gatherers (EHG) from way up north in Karelia.

    Source:

    https://brill.com/view/title/56151"

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    Isn't Satsurblia what CHG was first based on, and isn't he the oldest J1 we know of? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Isn't Satsurblia what CHG was first based on, and isn't he the oldest J1 we know of? Or is my memory playing tricks on me?
    I think it was reported as J2.
    But later analysis showed it to be J1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by parasar View Post
    I think it was reported as J2.
    But later analysis showed it to be J1.
    Right, but also the oldest J1 we have thus far, and the one CHG was based on.

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