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Thread: The mixed genetic origin of the first farmers of Europe

  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by Megalophias View Post
    Do we have DNA from the morphologically SSA-looking (or whatever) Natufians? They aren't all the same, are they?
    If I remember correctly, there are no SSA looking individuals among Natufians, there are just individuals with such tendencies, which are stronger in some than others. Overall they were described as "Proto-Mediterranean" by most authors. We shouldn't forget the timing, because at this point SSA like in modern West Africans might have been rare in Africa and in Europe people too looked different, same for large portions of East Asia. Many such modern strains being the result of fairly recent fusions. Go back another 20.000 years, and the situation is even further from what it is now and so on. The phenotypical variation of today can't be transplanted 1:1 into the past, the more distant, the harder. Finding individuals which fit exactly into the framework of modern East Asians (CJK), Europeans or Northern West Africans 30.000 years ago would be always a big thing, because most specimen found still differed, some more, some less. But they were not the same.

    One just have to look at prehistoric and modern variation among "Eurasians" to be sure that they were no phenotypically homogeneous stock. So "Eurasian" in a genetic sense doesn't equal any sort of very specific phenotype anyway.

    Short descriptions of the various Near Eastern prehistoric populations with photographs of skulls, including Natufians, which were a very gracile people overall:
    http://bioanthropology.huji.ac.il/pdf/1.pdf
    Last edited by Riverman; 12-04-2020 at 09:33 PM.

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    The morphological SSA affinities among Natufians are well-known. That is why the absence of SSA genetic ancestry in Lazaridis et al.'s first investigation was so surprising. Can we stop making up history to satisfy fantasies? Lazaridis et al:

    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...311v1.full.pdf

    "Craniometric analyses have suggested that the Natufians may have migrated
    from north or sub-Saharan
    Africa , a result that finds some support from Y chromosome
    analysis which shows that the Natufians and successor Levantine Neolithic populations
    carried haplogroup E, of likely ultimate African origin
    , which has not been detected in other
    ancient males from West Eurasia (Supplementary Information, section 6)"
    Last edited by Mansamusa; 12-05-2020 at 08:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by beyoku View Post
    I still dont understsnd HOW people take a non-african population (Natufian) dominated by African paternal lineages and use them as proof that a language family DOESNT originate in Africa. Going further describing that population as having No African ancestry.

    What exactly am I missing here? Furthermore all data has indicated they have African Autosomal ancestry. We can add this to the fact that Natufian like ancestry is found in African remains 1000s of years older than Natufian.

    Keep playing that game though.
    As in eh.

    It is amazing but not surprising anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TuaMan View Post
    What evidence is there that the neolithiziation of Upper Egypt was a totally different phenomenon than in Lower Egypt - i.e., why assume that Upper Egypt wasn't just colonized by agro-pastoralists moving down the Nile from Lower Egypt after the Neolithic started there?

    Also, I was able to find this old blog post from 2010 with a comment from Jean about those Neolithic Syrian mtDNA Ls

    http://racehist.blogspot.com/2010/05...nd-iberia.html

    Apparently these samples go all the way back to a thesis from 2005. Then the 2014 paper was released and those L2a1 samples all got re-assigned.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_Halula#Ancient_DNA
    The neolithization of ancient egypt was south to north and not the other way round.

    That is an assertion, not the speculation you guys have been having on genetics(as you should).

    The flow of culture during the so-called neolithitic period in the Nile valley and in the period of the formation of the earliest ancient Egyptian culture was South to North. In fact, it starts from south of what became Egypt (the Western sahara and the Nubian side of the valley)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Keneki20 View Post
    I read that a few months ago, and it indeed seems to verify a trend I've noticed in West African populations at large. That is, L3 lineages tend to be far more common than is publicized. Well, at least, they're more common than I initially imagined.

    In another study titled Little genetic differentiation as assessed by uniparental markers in the presence of substantial language variation in peoples of the Cross River region of Nigeria, L3 lineages in the Igbo were at 38.31%. If counting non-L lineages (unspecified) with L3, then that figure jumps to 39.3%. I had to calculate that from the supplementary notes, though, as the graphic it gives, while useful, isn't the easiest to parse out information from. In the same study, the L3 figure (at least from the graphic. I didn't calculate this particular figure myself) is higher when looking at Nigeria at large. For Ghana, the L3 figures were a little bit lower, but still very significant (at least in the 20s percentage-wise).

    Then, when seeing both Nigerians and other West Africans taking 23andme tests, their mtDNA results would show L3 lineages slightly more often than L2 or even L1 lineages, which were what I initially expected. A bit surprising, especially since L2a tends to be uniformly the most common distinct mtDNA lineage amongst West Africans.

    For the first study you mentioned, though, it may be a bit problematic. I remembered seeing it and adding up the figures it presented. I fell just short of 100% every time. That's to say, everything (L3b+L3d+L1c+L2c,+ etc.) added up to 97.26%, when it shouldn't have. Maybe that was due to rounding, since many haplogroups had the exact same frequencies too often to make sense. But still, the fact that I could never get 100% when adding all haplogroups up was a bit troubling. Anyway, when adding up L3 lineage frequencies it presented, the total figure was just 50.75%. As for L2 lineages, they were only 28.18%, which is relatively low and a bit odd to me. I suppose that just may be down to the individuals sampled.

    Although, a doctoral dissertation titled Tracing the genetic origin of African descendants from South America (also Origine génétique des descendants Africains de
    l’Amérique du Sud)
    , and one other study titled Contrasting Maternal and Paternal Histories in the Linguistic
    Context of Burkina Faso
    seem to suggest that L3 lineages are about as common as amongst the Yoruba as L2 lineages are. At the very least, their frequencies are comparable. In the dissertation, if tallying up the L3 and L2 lineage frequencies (page 131), the Yoruba (in Benin) had a 50.1% L3 frequency and a 37.5% L2 frequency. So, once again, another frequency in the range of 50%. For the other study, on the other hand, it said Yoruba's had a 41% L2a frequency and a 37% frequency of L3 lineages. That information is deduced from the supplementary notes. Actually, for this study, L2 is sometimes even consistently the most common in West Africans, but L3 is seldom ever far behind.

    Overall, with respect to your comments on the large presence of L3 in West Africans, it's significant presence is noteworthy.


    As for your inquiry on why L3 is so present, I can't offer all that much. However, I did find an interesting quote from one of an article titled Genetic diversity between two Igbo men from Owerri senatorial province as determined by autosomal short tandem repeats, Y-chromosomal short tandem repeats and mitochondrial DNA typing methods. Not sure exactly how meaningful the information it brings up is, but it's still interesting:
    Interesting

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    By looking at the Natufians and their neighbours, what sticks out the most is that their sexual dimorphism is lower and they are signfiicantly more gracile. Both in comparison to North Africans, as well as West Eurasians. In this respect they resemble the Tenerians, which are however otherwise more extremely shifted towards a more exotic trait combination, with Subsaharan affinities.

    Also, whatever they were, it seems they lived in the region for longer:
    According to Arensburg and Ferembach, the Natufian populations of Israel represent a single local group with close morphometric similarities with the ancestral Upper Palaeolithic population of the region. The remains of Nahal Ein Gev I18 and Ohalo19 dated to ca. 20,000 years B.P. plainly confirm this view. The Natufian metric and morphological characteristics enable the statement that "no radical changes occurred in the anthropological composition of the area from the end of the Aurignacian to the beginning of the Neolithic"
    Argument for relative continuity:
    The morphometric stability of the Levantine population from the Upper Palaeolithic to the early Neolithic exclude the role attributed to great human migrations between Africa and Europe in the shaping of these late Palaeolithic and Epi palaeolithic groups. Stability in this case must be interpreted not only in cultural, but also in phylogenetic terms. The biological influence from Europe to the Levant, or that of the Levant in Africa, seems to be minimal during these times2
    Afalou sticks out in the exact opposite direction:

    Yet, such functional adaptations to a life-style can scarcely explain the exceptional shape and size of the clavicle in the Afalou remains, which exceeds that of all known early populations including the Neanderthals
    That's kind of remarkable and just stresses the overall hypermorphic, extremely robust character of the population. They really had a v shaped upper body ad extremum.

    In contrast to the local Upper Palaeolithic relationships of the Natufian population of the Levant, the North African remains from Afalou and Taforalt indicate possible influences from sub-Saharan Africa at that time. The earlier Aterian industries give way to later specialised traditions (Iberomau- rusian and Caspian of the Mediterranean coast), which appear 22-20 ky ago (early Iberomaurusian levels at Taforalt, Morocco; Tamar Hat, Algeria)
    https://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/paleo..._21_2_4620.pdf

    The paper is highly recommended, a solid appraoch and good comparison of Natufians with Afalou and Taforalt, which were significantly more robust and showed pronounced sexual dimorphism, as well as more obvious SSA shifted influences. At the same time, like postulated in the paper http://bioanthropology.huji.ac.il/pdf/1.pdf
    their Northern neighbours were more robust too. So Natufians are really somewhat peculiar in their very own way, probably at home in the Near East for long.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    By looking at the Natufians and their neighbours, what sticks out the most is that their sexual dimorphism is lower and they are signfiicantly more gracile. Both in comparison to North Africans, as well as West Eurasians. In this respect they resemble the Tenerians, which are however otherwise more extremely shifted towards a more exotic trait combination, with Subsaharan affinities.

    Also, whatever they were, it seems they lived in the region for longer:


    Argument for relative continuity:


    Afalou sticks out in the exact opposite direction:



    That's kind of remarkable and just stresses the overall hypermorphic, extremely robust character of the population. They really had a v shaped upper body ad extremum.



    https://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/paleo..._21_2_4620.pdf

    The paper is highly recommended, a solid appraoch and good comparison of Natufians with Afalou and Taforalt, which were significantly more robust and showed pronounced sexual dimorphism, as well as more obvious SSA shifted influences. At the same time, like postulated in the paper http://bioanthropology.huji.ac.il/pdf/1.pdf
    their Northern neighbours were more robust too. So Natufians are really somewhat peculiar in their very own way, probably at home in the Near East for long.
    This finds fits the model of a common Ancestral Upper Paleolithic Levantine population that migrated into Northwest africa and mixed with some sub-saharan-like ancestor ,
    While the Natufians would be the continuities descend of the ancestral Levantine population.

    It looks like Basal Eurasian was already admixed with CWE in the Levant since much earlier than the Natufians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ramses View Post
    It looks like Basal Eurasian was already admixed with CWE in the Levant since much earlier than the Natufians.
    If Basal Eurasian is real, like Dzudzuana, which it seems to be, yet its still just a modelled component so far, then this is for sure. Because otherwise its hard to explain how it could have spread that wide and far, far beyond the Natufians and the Levante. If it would have entered the Near East just recently, with newly incoming people from Africa, the wide distribution would be even harder to explain. Yet at the time of Natufian, the Basal Eurasian component had already reached the Caucasus and Iran:
    So far, the early Holocene populations from the Near 445East are known to have the highest proportion of Basal Eurasian ancestry, up to around 50%; e.g.446the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers from the Caucasus (CHG, (15)and Iran (HotuIIIb, (16)), (pre-447)/early Neolithic Levant (Natufian, Levant_N) and early Neolithic Iran (Iran_N, (16)).
    Considering the dual ancestry of the Taforalt individuals, we can explain the Altai affinity in 471Taforalt as a dilution of its Natufian-related ancestry withits significant proportion (~36.5%) of 472sub-Saharan African ancestry. Interestingly, the Neanderthal ancestry in Taforalt is higher than in 473early Neolithic Iran (Iran_N, f4= 0.000628, Z = 1.934). We can therefore deduce that the Taforalt 474individuals are not genetically closer to the hypothetical Basal Eurasian population than the early 475Holocene populations from Iran.
    4To test this, we used admixture modeling of Taforalt to quantify and characterize their Eurasian 495ancestry (16). One complication is the presence of sub-Saharan African ancestry in Taforalt, for 496which the relationship with much later Holocene ancient and present-day African groups is not 497understood.
    https://science.sciencemag.org/conte...sdrecht_SM.pdf

    This fits in nicely, together with the physical evidence, with the assumption of Basal Eurasian being a long term resident of the Near East and Taforalt having simply more of the regional African (ANA) component.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    https://www.persee.fr/docAsPDF/paleo..._21_2_4620.pdf

    The paper is highly recommended, a solid appraoch and good comparison of Natufians with Afalou and Taforalt, which were significantly more robust and showed pronounced sexual dimorphism, as well as more obvious SSA shifted influences.
    I have read it a while back, some months ago I think. Here is a more direct link: https://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153..._num_21_2_4620. By the way, do you know of a paper which mentions the basion-bregma heights of Iberomaurusians? I have already seen various other values.
    Last edited by Aleph; 12-05-2020 at 06:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleph View Post
    I have read it a while back, some months ago I think. Here is a more direct link: https://www.persee.fr/doc/paleo_0153..._num_21_2_4620. By the way, do you know of a paper which mentions the basion-bregma heights of Iberomaurusians? I have already seen various other values.
    For Natufians yes, but IBM, not at hand unfortunately.

    I also want to add that after reading the various papers on Natufians, Taforalt and Afalou, their physical and genetical position, I think that the differences are even more fundamental. They are completely different people, both on the WEA, BEA and ANA side. Their mixture might just be similar, in some respects, but even the West Eurasian contribution seems to be qualitatively different, more Upper Paleolithic European shifted. There is something going on which is below the radar of the current references and models.

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