The mixed genetic origin of the first farmers of Europe

[Megalophias]

This thread hasn't come anywhere the topic since page 3.

[passenger]

This thread hasn't come anywhere the topic since page 3.

Fair point. Let's compromise and say "within the realm of aDNA", rather than accusatory back-and-forth arguments.

[drobbah]

From what I've gathered from Aga, the Semitic-Berber branch split off around 5000BC and the pre-proto-Semitic speakers must've left(from the Nile valley) for the Levant shortly after that yet I don't remember the papers on the EBA samples from Jordan or Israel(certainly early Semitics) mentioning any Mota or Dinka-like admixture in these ancient samples and they had significantly less Anatolia/Iran/CHG than modern Levantines.
How much AEA ancestry to Copts and Berbers have today? Or the ancient Egyptian samples we have so far?

Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche
Distance: 1.1131% / 0.01113060
37.0 Early_European_Farmer
33.4 Iberomaurusian
10.8 Levant_ISR_C
9.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
3.8 Yoruba
2.8 Dinka
2.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
1.0 Arabian_Hunter-Gatherer_Simulated

Target: EGY_Late_Period:JK2134
Distance: 2.2904% / 0.02290381
78.4 Levant_ISR_C
8.0 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
4.6 Arabian_Hunter-Gatherer_Simulated
3.6 Iberomaurusian
3.2 Sudanese
1.4 Dinka
0.8 Steppe_Pastoralist

Target: EGY_Hellenistic:JK2888
Distance: 3.5192% / 0.03519202
71.0 Levant_ISR_C
9.6 Arabian_Hunter-Gatherer_Simulated
7.4 Iran_Neolithic
4.2 Sudanese
3.4 Iberomaurusian
3.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
0.8 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
0.4 Yoruba

Target: EGY_Late_Period:JK2911
Distance: 1.7825% / 0.01782529
66.0 Levant_ISR_C
11.2 Arabian_Hunter-Gatherer_Simulated
8.0 Iberomaurusian
7.0 Iran_Neolithic
4.2 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
1.2 Dinka
1.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
0.6 Eastern_Hunter-Gatherer
0.6 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic
0.2 Ancient_American

[Xeon]

There is Y-DNA Q in Volosovo and Latvia with an EHG genetic profile. I dont think first Q in East Europe arrived much later than R1. In just happened to be more "successful" in Northeast Eurasia than Northwest Eurasia but if some historical parameters were slightly different we would see maybe Bell Beakers with Q instead of R1b.

Isn't the general consensus that R1 spread with the indo european expansion from the pontic-caspian steppe? What does Q have anything to do with the indo european expansion?

Proto indo europeans themselves were overwhelmingly europid no?

[Kristiina]

Think positive.

I have learnt a lot from several posters. I have read very detailed linguistic analyses, I have taken note of important archaeological comments and, last but not least, of useful genetic observations and models. I even copied some comments and saved them on my laptop as they were so full of information and links.

[Michalis Moriopoulos]

Just trying to understand the single argument against a more (genetically) West Eurasian origin of AA of any significance, though certainly not decisive, even if true.

Not likely, in my opinion, but possible. But there are still people around which claim a more Southern origin for all of PAA, which is not based on any real argument other than an old branch living in Ethiopia. Now looking at this old branch, regardless of how fitting the model is or not, they are much more Basal Eurasian/West Eurasian shifted than neighbouring Nilo-Saharan speakers. That's all I'm saying.

Well, yeah, the issue for me isn't whether Omotics have West Eurasian ancestry; they do. The question is whether it was already there before Cushitics arrived on the scene or if Omotics owe the entirety of their WE ancestry to gene flow from Cushitic speakers. The "purer" example of the Ari is probably the one to focus on because the Wolayta do have known gene flow from their neighbors according to posters here. I would think this could be solved with uniparental information, but maybe it's too messy to say. If the Ari have lot of Savannah Pastoral Neolithic-asssociated or post-SPN Cushitic-specific E subclades, that would be nice to know. But if their subclades are older and can conceivably be tied to a Proto-AA migration, that would be very interesting indeed.

Agamemnon has stated that Proto-AA is pre-agricultural; it split up when its speakers were still foragers. Let's assume that Proto-AAs were Natufian-like and lived in Egypt ~13,000 years ago, perhaps as part of the Sebilian culture. We know nearby in Lower Nubia there were some very unusual-looking people living in Jebel Sahaba as part of the Qadan culture. Don't have their DNA yet, but these might have been AEA. Of course, we might get some kind of surprise and find out Jebel Sahaba was ANA or something really unusual that didn't survive into later periods, but I'm just assuming AEA for speculation's sake. Now let's say the Proto-Omotic branch splits off the trunk and heads south shortly thereafter, mixing with AEA people (not necessarily Qadan people proper) somewhere in Sudan. This creates the first hybrid AEA-Natufian hybrid group. Thousands of years later, Cushitics form under similar circumstances. Maybe Omotics sojourned in Sudan for a long time and were only pushed to the Omo Valley during the Savannah Pastoral Neolithic thanks to pressure from Cushitic migration, only acquiring Mota-like ancestry once they got there. I don't know if this theory is archaeologically sound, but I was thinking about what you've said before about chain reaction migrations. I'm not sure we need to even assume Omotic has been in Ethiopia for 10,000+ years. But it does need to be explained, as its membership in Afro-Asiatic is canonical according to our resident expert.

[etrusco]

http://www.archeo.ru/izdaniya-1/vagn...020-2013-123-s


These are a series of interesting papers about Russian archeological cultures. Among them I find particularly interesting this about the Volga_Ural region. It seems that Khvalynsk is a bit younger than previously thought. It seems younger than Sredni Stog I . That tilts the balance pretty much in favor of SS being the PIE. So likely is Khvalynsk that is from SS ( first phase ) rather than the other way round. So as I predicted Yamnaya is just SS absorbing and assimilating people from further east. On Eurogenes Vladimir posted this :


In addition to the numerous dates of the Upper don, there are two dates for SSC ceramics from the Cherkasskaya-3 site on the Middle don: 4240-3811 Salbc (2σ), 4760-4345 Salbc (2σ).” The situation about SSC population migration is also clear: Pontic steppe-middle don - upper don-Belarus

If confirmed it is an hint to how Corded Ware came to be.



Chronology of the Khvalynsk culture of the Volga-Ural region
P. Kuznetsov
The paper examines the position of the Khvalynsk culture in the system of chronology of the Volga-Ural region
cultures. The chronological gap with the Yamnaya culture of the initial stage of the Bronze Age has been reduced.

[CopperAxe]

Isn't the general consensus that R1 spread with the indo european expansion from the pontic-caspian steppe? What does Q have anything to do with the indo european expansion?

Proto indo europeans themselves were overwhelmingly europid no?

PIE was spread by EHG lineages from the PC Steppe. R1a-m417 and r1b-m269 are examples of such lineages. But EHGs also had other haplogroups like I2, J and Q. Therefore those lineages could've been spread by the early Indo-Europeans as well.

Q and R are related Y-dna haplogroups, and they are equally intrusive to Europe.

Not sure why people here think that any Q in the west is via migrations from Altaic or Mongoloid peoples here, when it is clearly ANE related.

[halfalp]

http://www.archeo.ru/izdaniya-1/vagn...020-2013-123-s


These are a series of interesting papers about Russian archeological cultures. Among them I find particularly interesting this about the Volga_Ural region. It seems that Khvalynsk is a bit younger than previously thought. It seems younger than Sredni Stog I . That tilts the balance pretty much in favor of SS being the PIE. So likely is Khvalynsk that is from SS ( first phase ) rather than the other way round. So as I predicted Yamnaya is just SS absorbing and assimilating people from further east. On Eurogenes Vladimir posted this :


In addition to the numerous dates of the Upper don, there are two dates for SSC ceramics from the Cherkasskaya-3 site on the Middle don: 4240-3811 Salbc (2σ), 4760-4345 Salbc (2σ).” The situation about SSC population migration is also clear: Pontic steppe-middle don - upper don-Belarus

If confirmed it is an hint to how Corded Ware came to be.



Chronology of the Khvalynsk culture of the Volga-Ural region
P. Kuznetsov
The paper examines the position of the Khvalynsk culture in the system of chronology of the Volga-Ural region
cultures. The chronological gap with the Yamnaya culture of the initial stage of the Bronze Age has been reduced.

Can you read Cyrillic or did you translate the entire paper? And if so, do you have a translation of it?

[etrusco]

Can you read Cyrillic or did you translate the entire paper? And if so, do you have a translation of it?

I can read cyrillic but I'm not fluent in Russian. The translation was provided by poster Vladimir who is I guess a native russian speaker. The informations from the Khvalynsk paper are a resumèè in English.