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Thread: The mixed genetic origin of the first farmers of Europe

  1. #161
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    Think positive.

    I have learnt a lot from several posters. I have read very detailed linguistic analyses, I have taken note of important archaeological comments and, last but not least, of useful genetic observations and models. I even copied some comments and saved them on my laptop as they were so full of information and links.

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  3. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Just trying to understand the single argument against a more (genetically) West Eurasian origin of AA of any significance, though certainly not decisive, even if true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    Not likely, in my opinion, but possible. But there are still people around which claim a more Southern origin for all of PAA, which is not based on any real argument other than an old branch living in Ethiopia. Now looking at this old branch, regardless of how fitting the model is or not, they are much more Basal Eurasian/West Eurasian shifted than neighbouring Nilo-Saharan speakers. That's all I'm saying.
    Well, yeah, the issue for me isn't whether Omotics have West Eurasian ancestry; they do. The question is whether it was already there before Cushitics arrived on the scene or if Omotics owe the entirety of their WE ancestry to gene flow from Cushitic speakers. The "purer" example of the Ari is probably the one to focus on because the Wolayta do have known gene flow from their neighbors according to posters here. I would think this could be solved with uniparental information, but maybe it's too messy to say. If the Ari have lot of Savannah Pastoral Neolithic-asssociated or post-SPN Cushitic-specific E subclades, that would be nice to know. But if their subclades are older and can conceivably be tied to a Proto-AA migration, that would be very interesting indeed.

    Agamemnon has stated that Proto-AA is pre-agricultural; it split up when its speakers were still foragers. Let's assume that Proto-AAs were Natufian-like and lived in Egypt ~13,000 years ago, perhaps as part of the Sebilian culture. We know nearby in Lower Nubia there were some very unusual-looking people living in Jebel Sahaba as part of the Qadan culture. Don't have their DNA yet, but these might have been AEA. Of course, we might get some kind of surprise and find out Jebel Sahaba was ANA or something really unusual that didn't survive into later periods, but I'm just assuming AEA for speculation's sake. Now let's say the Proto-Omotic branch splits off the trunk and heads south shortly thereafter, mixing with AEA people (not necessarily Qadan people proper) somewhere in Sudan. This creates the first hybrid AEA-Natufian hybrid group. Thousands of years later, Cushitics form under similar circumstances. Maybe Omotics sojourned in Sudan for a long time and were only pushed to the Omo Valley during the Savannah Pastoral Neolithic thanks to pressure from Cushitic migration, only acquiring Mota-like ancestry once they got there. I don't know if this theory is archaeologically sound, but I was thinking about what you've said before about chain reaction migrations. I'm not sure we need to even assume Omotic has been in Ethiopia for 10,000+ years. But it does need to be explained, as its membership in Afro-Asiatic is canonical according to our resident expert.
    Last edited by Michalis Moriopoulos; 11-28-2020 at 08:17 AM.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

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  5. #163
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    http://www.archeo.ru/izdaniya-1/vagn...020-2013-123-s


    These are a series of interesting papers about Russian archeological cultures. Among them I find particularly interesting this about the Volga_Ural region. It seems that Khvalynsk is a bit younger than previously thought. It seems younger than Sredni Stog I . That tilts the balance pretty much in favor of SS being the PIE. So likely is Khvalynsk that is from SS ( first phase ) rather than the other way round. So as I predicted Yamnaya is just SS absorbing and assimilating people from further east. On Eurogenes Vladimir posted this :


    In addition to the numerous dates of the Upper don, there are two dates for SSC ceramics from the Cherkasskaya-3 site on the Middle don: 4240-3811 Salbc (2σ), 4760-4345 Salbc (2σ).” The situation about SSC population migration is also clear: Pontic steppe-middle don - upper don-Belarus

    If confirmed it is an hint to how Corded Ware came to be.



    Chronology of the Khvalynsk culture of the Volga-Ural region
    P. Kuznetsov
    The paper examines the position of the Khvalynsk culture in the system of chronology of the Volga-Ural region
    cultures. The chronological gap with the Yamnaya culture of the initial stage of the Bronze Age has been reduced.

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  7. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeon View Post
    Isn't the general consensus that R1 spread with the indo european expansion from the pontic-caspian steppe? What does Q have anything to do with the indo european expansion?

    Proto indo europeans themselves were overwhelmingly europid no?
    PIE was spread by EHG lineages from the PC Steppe. R1a-m417 and r1b-m269 are examples of such lineages. But EHGs also had other haplogroups like I2, J and Q. Therefore those lineages could've been spread by the early Indo-Europeans as well.

    Q and R are related Y-dna haplogroups, and they are equally intrusive to Europe.

    Not sure why people here think that any Q in the west is via migrations from Altaic or Mongoloid peoples here, when it is clearly ANE related.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 11-28-2020 at 09:29 AM.

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  9. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    http://www.archeo.ru/izdaniya-1/vagn...020-2013-123-s


    These are a series of interesting papers about Russian archeological cultures. Among them I find particularly interesting this about the Volga_Ural region. It seems that Khvalynsk is a bit younger than previously thought. It seems younger than Sredni Stog I . That tilts the balance pretty much in favor of SS being the PIE. So likely is Khvalynsk that is from SS ( first phase ) rather than the other way round. So as I predicted Yamnaya is just SS absorbing and assimilating people from further east. On Eurogenes Vladimir posted this :


    In addition to the numerous dates of the Upper don, there are two dates for SSC ceramics from the Cherkasskaya-3 site on the Middle don: 4240-3811 Salbc (2σ), 4760-4345 Salbc (2σ).” The situation about SSC population migration is also clear: Pontic steppe-middle don - upper don-Belarus

    If confirmed it is an hint to how Corded Ware came to be.



    Chronology of the Khvalynsk culture of the Volga-Ural region
    P. Kuznetsov
    The paper examines the position of the Khvalynsk culture in the system of chronology of the Volga-Ural region
    cultures. The chronological gap with the Yamnaya culture of the initial stage of the Bronze Age has been reduced.
    Can you read Cyrillic or did you translate the entire paper? And if so, do you have a translation of it?

  10. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by halfalp View Post
    Can you read Cyrillic or did you translate the entire paper? And if so, do you have a translation of it?
    I can read cyrillic but I'm not fluent in Russian. The translation was provided by poster Vladimir who is I guess a native russian speaker. The informations from the Khvalynsk paper are a resumèè in English.

  11. #167
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    this is a paper in Russian about the eastern SS culture around the Don

    Sredniy Stog culture of the Don forest-steppe: data of radiocarbon dating
    A. Skorobogatov, R. Smolyaninov


    This work is devoted to the generalization of the data of radiocarbon dating of complexes of the Sredniy Stog culture in
    the territory of the Don forest-steppe. The available materials indicate the presence of two stages in the development
    of the Sredniy Stog culture in this territory, which generally existed from the beginning of the second quarter of the
    5th millennium BC until the end of the 4th millennium BC.

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  13. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    http://www.archeo.ru/izdaniya-1/vagn...020-2013-123-s


    These are a series of interesting papers about Russian archeological cultures. Among them I find particularly interesting this about the Volga_Ural region. It seems that Khvalynsk is a bit younger than previously thought. It seems younger than Sredni Stog I . That tilts the balance pretty much in favor of SS being the PIE. So likely is Khvalynsk that is from SS ( first phase ) rather than the other way round. So as I predicted Yamnaya is just SS absorbing and assimilating people from further east. On Eurogenes Vladimir posted this :


    In addition to the numerous dates of the Upper don, there are two dates for SSC ceramics from the Cherkasskaya-3 site on the Middle don: 4240-3811 Salbc (2σ), 4760-4345 Salbc (2σ).” The situation about SSC population migration is also clear: Pontic steppe-middle don - upper don-Belarus

    If confirmed it is an hint to how Corded Ware came to be.



    Chronology of the Khvalynsk culture of the Volga-Ural region
    P. Kuznetsov
    The paper examines the position of the Khvalynsk culture in the system of chronology of the Volga-Ural region
    cultures. The chronological gap with the Yamnaya culture of the initial stage of the Bronze Age has been reduced.
    Important reminder here is that the Sredny Stog culture had two distinct phases, and it's particulsrly the Sredny Stog phase II that is a material culture you'd associate with and recognize as PIE.

    But despite the logical assumption that PIE originated in the SS cultural zone, we have to remember that a key feature of IE culture was not present there, the burial mounds that is so we obvioudly do not have a one way street when it comes to cultural input from the local EHG descendent steppe herders. SS mostly had flat burials, the type you see amongst several CWC populations.

    Not sure if I'd agree with Khvalynsk just originating from SS phase 1. They clearly would've had contact and there would've been quite some agropastoral influence from west to east, but Khvalynsk had pretty distinct Y-dna lineages that I think are more likely to be from local EHGs of that region, such as the Samara culture.
    Last edited by CopperAxe; 11-28-2020 at 10:14 AM.

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  15. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by CopperAxe View Post
    Important reminder here is that the Sredny Stog culture had two distinct phases, and it's particulsrly the Sredny Stog phase II that is a material culture you'd associate with and recognize as PIE.

    But despite the logical assumption that PIE originated in the SS cultural zone, we have to remember that a key feature of IE culture was not present there, the burial mounds that is so we obvioudly do not have a one way street when it comes to cultural input from the local EHG descendent steppe herders. SS mostly had flat burials, the type you see amongst several CWC populations.

    Not sure if I'd agree with Khvalynsk just originating from SS phase 1. They clearly would've had contact and there would've been quite some agropastoral influence from west to east, but Khvalynsk had pretty distinct Y-dna lineages that I think are more likely to be from local EHGs of that region, such as the Samara culture.

    I think you both raised the question and provided the answer: if CWC that we know for sure was 100% IE speaking had flat burials like SS that means that there is no substantial connection between kurgans and PIE. Building kurgans it is a universal thing in different culture around the world to begin with. They were fashionable among the IE in a particular stage of their history. But that does not mean no kurgans no PIE.

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    So, we have a highly divergent branch of Afro-Asiatic, Omotic, in East-Africa. This reminds me of the position of Hittite in the IE family. Some people have argued that this kind of a situation proves that a language family orignated where the oldest split is, i.e. the origin of IE languages is in Anatolia. By the way, this train of thought is usually also applied to yDNA haplogroups.

    A less extreme position would be that the earliest split indicates the approximate area of a protolanguage, and this would allow the IE home area to be extended to Ukraine, and Afro-Asiatic home to be located in the Nile Valley.

    A third position would be completely different: differentiation is not only a steady result of a distance in time but it can be due to a strong substrate influence. In this model, the most divergent language needs not be the oldest, it can even be the youngest.

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