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Thread: The mixed genetic origin of the first farmers of Europe

  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by Riverman View Post
    There must have been an Eurasian-like population, which moved closer to West Eurasians and had a lower Neandertal admixture. This population is unlikely to have lived too far in the North. I'm not sure we know much more right now.
    I still don't think there is anything to rule out...
    West-Eurasian + Onge-like + ANE = Iran_N
    West-Eurasian + Ust_Ishim-like = paleo-Europeans

    Basal being an illusion of Iran_N's lack of Ust_Ishim ancestry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    I still don't think there is anything to rule out...
    West-Eurasian + Onge-like + ANE = Iran_N
    West-Eurasian + Ust_Ishim-like = paleo-Europeans

    Basal being an illusion of Iran_N's lack of Ust_Ishim ancestry.
    CHG= Dzudzuana + ANE
    IRAN Neolithic= Dzudzuana + more ANE

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    CHG= Dzudzuana + ANE
    IRAN Neolithic= Dzudzuana + more ANE
    Interesting difference between Iran and Dzudzuana.
    The genetic structure of the world’s first farmers
    Iosif Lazaridis et al...

    We report genome-wide ancient DNA from 44 ancient Near Easterners ranging in time between ~12,000-1,400 BCE, from Natufian hunter-gatherers to Bronze Age farmers. We show that the earliest populations of the Near East derived around half their ancestry from a ‘Basal Eurasian’ lineage that had little if any Neanderthal admixture and that separated from other non-African lineages prior to their separation from each other. The first farmers of the southern Levant (Israel and Jordan) and Zagros Mountains (Iran) were strongly genetically differentiated, and each descended from local hunter-gatherers.
    25,000 year-old Sample from the Caucasus with Basal Eurasian Ancestry

    We estimate 1% Neanderthal ancestry in the SAT29 sample, although with large uncertainty due to the low amount of data (95% confidence intervals: 0-6.6%). This point estimate is similar to that of Dzuzuana2 and likely lower than that of Palaeolithic Europeans due to dilution from Basal Eurasian ancestry ..............We used outgroup f3-statistics to quantify the amount of shared genetic drift between SAT29 and other ancient genomes (Patterson et al., 2012). SAT29 shares more drift with Villabruna (Italy, 1214070 bp) (Fu et al., 2016) and Dzudzuana2 than with other ancient individuals (Figure S3A), including the post-LGM individuals from the Caucasus (Satsurblia and Kotias). Among present-day Eurasian populations, SAT29 shows higher genetic affinity to Northern and Western Europeans rather than Central and Southern Asians (Lazaridis et al., 2018)

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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    CHG= Dzudzuana + ANE
    IRAN Neolithic= Dzudzuana + more ANE
    It's definitely not that simple. Iran_N is more 'basal' than CHG and Dzudzuana.
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    This Basal-less model is from the paper that started this thread:

    Fig 3 The mixed genetic origin of the first farmers of Europe.GIF

    In their admixture graph S53 (suppl material), WC1 is the most basal sample without any African. Near Easterners are derived from its sibling branch which mixed with Meta Central (= WHG(x Bichon, Loscbour).

  7. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    I still don't think there is anything to rule out...
    West-Eurasian + Onge-like + ANE = Iran_N
    West-Eurasian + Ust_Ishim-like = paleo-Europeans

    Basal being an illusion of Iran_N's lack of Ust_Ishim ancestry.
    Doesn't Iran_N also take Ust_Ishim ancestry?

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    I haven't come across that. If you are recalling something coming from G25 it's a matter of misusing the tool (people do this allloooot). G25 is meant for discovering proximate sources and requires proximate sources to create a sensible model. Ust_Ishim 45kbp is nowhere near proximate to Iran_N 10kbp.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    I haven't come across that. If you are recalling something coming from G25 it's a matter of misusing the tool (people do this allloooot). G25 is meant for discovering proximate sources and requires proximate sources to create a sensible model. Ust_Ishim 45kbp is nowhere near proximate to Iran_N 10kbp.
    No it was a qpGraph someone posted here (I can't find it atm though) I wouldn't trust G25 with that time difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Riverman, in the exchanges with ybmpark its in fact you who pretty confused here and mixing up things like modern phenotypic categorization, biogeography, ethnology etc. This is a genetics forum, the fact that the earliest pre-P is found in a sample that is East Eurasian in population-genetic terms at a very early period (45kya) is an indisputable fact that can be framed precisely in this language, all this stuff about the "ethnology" of people from >30,000 years ago (how is this even possible to talk about?), or even the "trajectory of the phenotypes" is simply besides the point. If you choose to focus on phenotypic race, then ybmpark's assertion of the Mongoloid character of HGs in Northern Asia is backed up by a whole tradition of Soviet physical anthropology classifying HGs from Eastern Europe to the Baraba steppe as members of a "Northern Eurasian Anthropological Formation" that terminated with Mongoloid-type peoples from East of the Baraba steppe, with Mal'ta being classified as among the latter "Mongoloids" by e.g. Alexeev in his 1988 publication--but again this is beside the point in genetic terms.

    Furthermore, I see quite a few overgeneralisations or even outright assertions in some of your other posts in this thread: where are you getting this idea that no populations other than Western Eurasians were big-game hunters on the Mammoth steppe? Ust-Ishim from 45000 ya was already a mammoth hunter, as was Ust-Kyakhta 15kya--a sample even more ENA than modern Native Americans. And where are you getting this idea of "ANA pastoralists" spreading Niger-kordofanian?
    Where do you think East Asian phenotype evolved in? tundra of Manchuria and Outer Mongolia? I remember opening up a thread on this topic long ago

    https://anthrogenica.com/showthread....of-East-Asians

    Looking at the march 2020 paper, it seemed East Asians are mostly Tianyuan in origin with Onge increasing as you go further south
    Last edited by Diictodon; 02-03-2021 at 05:32 AM.

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    Devil Gates or Boisman vs Taiwan Hanben/Qihe def were root of differential differences in Modern East Asian phenotype excluding Haobinhian (La238)admixture. I.E. Aytal vs Tungus. But its interesting to know where 'Mongoloid' look comes from in the first place.

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