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Thread: Genomic Insights into the Demographic History of Southern Chinese

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Interestingly, if you call it a ghostly coastal population, for example, an admixture of the population of Luzon island. Island according to Wikipedia, Luzon is also the only place where the P*, P1*, and very rare P2 branches are found together, and the proportion of haplogroup K2b1 is high.
    Doesn't Tianyuan pretty much confirm the migration was from North to South?

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Doesn't Tianyuan pretty much confirm the migration was from North to South?
    Why not the other way around? Just from South to North would be much more logical. The CF population goes along the coast of the Arabian sea along the way, C, then G, then H, then IJ are separated. K is divided in the Indus region, and K2 in India. And K2b goes further along the coast, where MS is separated. By 35000-40000 BCE, p-337 reaches Siberia. Although I look yfull Ust-Ishim put in K2. If this is true, then you are right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Why not the other way around? Just from South to North would be much more logical. The CF population goes along the coast of the Arabian sea along the way, C, then G, then H, then IJ are separated. K is divided in the Indus region, and K2 in India. And K2b goes further along the coast, where MS is separated. By 35000-40000 BCE, p-337 reaches Siberia. Although I look yfull Ust-Ishim put in K2. If this is true, then you are right.
    Ust-Ishim is a crown Eurasian who is K2a. Tianyuan is an East Eurasian who is K2b. And both Yana samples are P and mixed between East and West Eurasians (but lets assume their ydnas are from the East Eurasian side). If K2,K2b and P all originated in South Eurasia as you hypothesize wouldn't you need

    - a migration from South Eurasia to Siberia carrying K2/K2a before the separation of East and West Eurasians at least 45K ybp
    - a second migration from South Eurasia to NE China carrying K2b and a Tianyuan like autosomal profile at least 39K ybp
    - a third migration from South Eurasia to the Yana RHS region carrying P at least 30K ybp

    In addition I don't believe Ust-Ishim (and Oase), Tianyuan Yana have any particular SE Asian affinity. I could be wrong but I think Tianyuan has the type of ancestry that makes NE Asians distinct from SE Asians. And I don't think any of them have the type of Denisovian ancestry we would expect if they came from SE Asia.

    I'm not sure about the coastal migration theory. But I just have doubts that those G, H, IJK originated among the coasts. I am interested in where K split.
    Last edited by davit; 12-03-2020 at 06:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davit View Post
    Ust-Ishim is a crown Eurasian who is K2a. Tianyuan is an East Eurasian who is K2b. And both Yana samples are P and mixed between East and West Eurasians (but lets assume their ydnas are from the East Eurasian side). If K2,K2b and P all originated in South Eurasia as you hypothesize wouldn't you need

    - a migration from South Eurasia to Siberia carrying K2/K2a before the separation of East and West Eurasians at least 45K ybp
    - a second migration from South Eurasia to NE China carrying K2b and a Tianyuan like autosomal profile at least 39K ybp
    - a third migration from South Eurasia to the Yana RHS region carrying P at least 30K ybp

    In addition I don't believe Ust-Ishim (and Oase), Tianyuan Yana have any particular SE Asian affinity. I could be wrong but I think Tianyuan has the type of ancestry that makes NE Asians distinct from SE Asians. And I don't think any of them have the type of Denisovian ancestry we would expect if they came from SE Asia.

    I'm not sure about the coastal migration theory. But I just have doubts that those G, H, IJK originated among the coasts. I am interested in where K split.
    As for K2a, it could have passed through Central Asia and China. But from Europe or Central Asia to Siberia came C2, which brought there an admixture of Kostenki14. And he could have come there with the Neanderthals, and when p-337 and N came to Siberia, C2 was already there,but he destroyed the Neanderthals. You don't need any more of the above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    Interestingly, if you call it a ghostly coastal population, for example, an admixture of the population of Luzon island. Island according to Wikipedia, Luzon is also the only place where the P*, P1*, and very rare P2 branches are found together, and the proportion of haplogroup K2b1 is high.
    The current nomenclature has K2b1 as the Oceanic lineage such as M and S and K2b2 as the continental with P-QR as its most numerous descendants.
    K2b1 and K2b2 are not that close because there are only several SNPs they share. That means K2b2 is only slightly closer to K2b1 compared with K2a whose most numerous descendents are N and O.
    The Wallace line quite sharply divides K2b1 and K2b2.
    Excepting recent admixture almost all K2b east of Wallace line are K2b1 and to the west almost all K2b2 though K2b2(XQR) are exceptionally rare in modern era.

    P.S. By the same reasoning around the time of their formation K2a, K2b, K2b1 K2b2 were all very close. It is exceedingly unlikely that they exhibited different physical anthropology as some imagine here.
    Last edited by ybmpark; 12-03-2020 at 07:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    As for K2a, it could have passed through Central Asia and China. But from Europe or Central Asia to Siberia came C2, which brought there an admixture of Kostenki14. And he could have come there with the Neanderthals, and when p-337 and N came to Siberia, C2 was already there,but he destroyed the Neanderthals. You don't need any more of the above.
    Why would you say that when C2 has not been found anywhere outside of Northen East Asia in prehistoric times?
    And none older than 20K was found so far. They existed since ~50K or so but no really ancient one has been found so far.
    Kostenki was C1b. This is often regarded as the candidate for the original ANE y chromosome before admixture with East Eurasians.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VladimirTaraskin View Post
    As for K2a, it could have passed through Central Asia and China. But from Europe or Central Asia to Siberia came C2, which brought there an admixture of Kostenki14. And he could have come there with the Neanderthals, and when p-337 and N came to Siberia, C2 was already there,but he destroyed the Neanderthals. You don't need any more of the above.
    I wasn't aware of C2 in Europe or Western Siberia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ybmpark View Post
    Who were the "King of Shimyang" during the Mongol Empire?
    Koreans have been always there until the Manchu invited Chinese after the intial masscacre.
    Koryo King or royal members who served as king of shimyang sometimes drafted as many as 20000 from that region at the request of Mongol court to suppress Chinese rebels when only 8000 could be drafted from Korea proper.

    The hereditary regional ruling family was also Korean at the end of Ming era.
    They themselves explicitly said so, when the 李成梁, the ruler of the region, said to his son 李如松 the leading general of the Ming troops dispatched to Korea to repel Japanese invasion.
    He said the son should not be aftraid to die in that war because it is their ancestral homeland.
    There have been Chinese attempts to claim that the family was Jurnchen, not Korean but that is prettly silly since the family is one of the most prominet ones dating back to middle Koryo period or earlier.

    Also ethnic Koreans were classified as "Chinese" by the Manchu.
    So Chinese on paper are not necessarily all Chinese.
    During the Ching era Korean envoy encountered mostly ethnic Koreans on their way to Beijing.
    Upon realizing this the servants to the envoy often acted very barbarously toward the ethnic Korean residents causing diplomatic embarrassment to the Korean court.

    Ethnic Chinese were nearly wiped out at the intial Manchu conquest and it is well documented.
    It is the one of the most horrific mass killing in history easily exceeding Holocaust.
    Survivors sought refuge often in Korea and this also caused a lot of problem.
    All these are very well documented.

    Later Chinese were allowed back in but were forced to stay under "Willow Palisade" around the lower Liao valley.
    Manchu were greatly disturbed when Chinese broke this rule at the end of Ching era.
    They would be turning in their graves if they saw Chinese in Harbin acting as if they were natives.

    No one is denying the importance of Korean settlers in southern Manchuria. The southernmost Tungusic dialects--Manchu and its relatives--were Koreanised in typology and less so vocabulary, so Koreans (or at least Koreanic speakers--Vovin is careful to point out potential distinctions between loanwords from a Koreanic language and actual Korean) have always existed in Liaodong and for long periods. But Han Chinese have been there for a long time as well--there was likely an ethnically mixed population by Ming times. For example, other powerful clans in the area of Fushun/Shenyang and Liaodong were the Shi and Tong clans (of probable Han origin), alongside the Li/Yi and Cui/Choe (of probable Korean origin as you mentioned), all of these held positions in the local administration in Fushun and Shenyang and all of these contributed followers and generals to the early followers of Nurhaci. In fact the Tong lineage, dating to the time of Nurhaci, intermarried heavily into the imperial house from an early period and generated multiple later Emperors.

    Local rulership was clearly not hereditary, its important to distinguish between influential families/landowning elites and "local rule", the Tong clan sent multiple individuals to the rest of China to serve mandarinate terms, some of them were familiar with Jesuits they met in Peking and learnt their cannonry skills from them; they were summoned back only once to serve in local office in Liaodong.

    And its not just Chinese scholars who point out that the Li family may not have been Korean, or purely Korean--Pamela Crossley, probably the foremost Western historian of Manchu rule in China, thinks so also. Quoting her:

    As mentioned above, northern Korea, including Omohoi, had been a heavily Jurchenized area for hundreds of years before the later fourteenth century, when
    the government of Yi Korea began campaigns to drive them north. Like the
    Ming, the Yi used a combination of military occupation and agricultural
    colonization to secure the region. Many Jurchens joined the Yi garrisons
    established in the vicinity of the Yalu, and others entered trade, frequently
    assuming Korean surnames. Li Chengliang's ancestor Li Yingni (or Yi YOngnok) may have been a contemporary of Tong Dali and M6ngke Temiir.81 ... . Given the demography of northern Korea in Li Yingni's time, the probability that he was of
    Jurchen descent, and followed a career path similar to Tong Dali's (either
    opportunistically or under pressure from Korean incursions) is greater
    than that he was a "Korean" who abandoned agriculture or trade to undertake an illegal trek to Liaodong.
    I dunno where you got this idea that Han Chinese individuals were "wiped out" in Liaodong after the Qing conquest--how could that be, when the mandarinate at Shenyang serving the court ever since Wang Taiji's times were heavily Han Chinese, and there was even a social category for them inherited from the time of Nurhaci ("Nikan", assimilated individuals of non-nomadic ethnicity but Han is clearly important here given that the very name is a loanword from "Han" and "country of the Nikan" in Manchu speech referred to Ming China, not Korea) and they often served as personal bodyguards since Nurhaci's times and later the entirety of the cannon-corps and eight banners of the army? How could that be when Nurhaci's sons had a Han Chinese tutor who was gifted Manchu wives and slaves? In fact, there was extensive intermarriage between ethnic Manchu and Han people even when the Manchu dynasty was confined to Manchuria--"Nikan" was one of the commonest Manchu names.
    Last edited by Ryukendo; 12-03-2020 at 08:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    No one is denying the importance of Korean settlers in southern Manchuria. The southernmost Tungusic dialects--Manchu and its relatives--were Koreanised in typology and less so vocabulary, so Koreans (or at least Koreanic speakers--Vovin is careful to point out potential distinctions between loanwords from a Koreanic language and actual Korean) have always existed in Liaodong and for long periods. (Note that Vovin points out there are no signs of contact with Koreanic anywhere else in Manchuria except in the southernmost branch of Tungusic, confining Korean influence to Liaodong.) But Han Chinese have been there for a long time as well--there was likely an ethnically mixed population by Ming times. For example, other powerful clans in the area of Fushun/Shenyang and Liaodong were the Shi and Tong clans (of probable Han origin), alongside the Li/Yi and Cui/Choe (of probable Korean origin as you mentioned), all of these held positions in the local administration in Fushun and Shenyang and all of these contributed followers and generals to the early followers of Nurhaci. In fact the Tong lineage, dating to the time of Nurhaci, intermarried heavily into the imperial house from the early period and generated multiple later Emperors.

    Local rulership was clearly not hereditary, its important to distinguish between influential families/landowning elites and "local rule", the Tong clan sent multiple individuals to the rest of China to serve mandarinate terms, some of them were familiar with Jesuits they met in Peking and learnt their cannonry skills from them; they were summoned back only once to serve in local office in Liaodong.

    And its not just Chinese scholars who point out that the Li family may not have been Korean, or purely Korean--Pamela Crossley, probably the foremost Western historian of the Manchu rule in China, thinks so also. Quoting her:



    I dunno where you got this idea that Han Chinese individuals were "wiped out" in Liaodong after the Qing conquest--how could that be, when the mandarinate at Shenyang serving the court ever since Wang Taiji's times were heavily Han Chinese, and there was even a social category for them inherited from the time of Nurhaci ("Nikan", assimilated individuals of non-nomadic ethnicity but Han is clearly important here given that the very name is a loanword from "Han" and "country of the Nikan" in Manchu speech referred to Ming China, not Korea) and they often served as personal bodyguards since Nurhaci's times and later the entirety of the cannon-corps and eight banners of the army? How could that be when Nurhaci's sons had a Han Chinese tutor who was gifted Manchu wives and slaves? In fact, there was extensive intermarriage between ethnic Manchu and Han people even when the Manchu dynasty was confined to Manchuria--"Nikan" was one of the commonest Manchu names.
    I wanted to message you about something private. Do you mind making space for one message in your inbox? Thanks.

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    The ma1 boy does not share any component with east asians, but he was found to share a component with oceanians. In admixture he almost always has one

    Last edited by Bbgum; 12-04-2020 at 07:06 AM.

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