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Thread: Genomic Insights into the Demographic History of Southern Chinese

  1. #31
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    I read Yayul's blog again and it appears that Koreans are the closest to all three WLR_MN(Hongshan), WLR_LN, WLR_BA in f4 statistics.
    But I will drop the "easily" part.
    It is remarkable that all regions of Korea come out as closest very consistently but the margin is not what I would say overwhelming.

    The order is generally 1 Koreans 2 Japanese 3 Some Northern Han Chinese like Shanshi 4 other northern Chinese and "Altaic" people 5 southern Chinese.
    Except WLR_LN, where Han Chinese come out very close, second only to Koreans and Japanese are generally farther than most Han Chinese.
    Instead of looking at this from a Korean perspective, a more parsimonious view is that whoever occupied western Manchuria from Neolithic period onward also supplied people to the Korean peninsula.
    And in turn whatever the linguistic situation is, the immigrants to Japan from the continent is generally snapshots of the demography of southern Korea at that particular time.

    After Bronze Age however powerful kingdoms such as Jhoson and Koguryo blocked further influx from the continent and the Korean ethnicity was born.

    P.S. And indeed f4 is not really a measure of closeness but how well Koreans can be modeled as descendents of WLR populations.
    Last edited by ybmpark; 12-01-2020 at 03:07 PM.

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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybmpark View Post
    I read Yayul's blog again and it appears that Koreans are the closest to all three WLR_MN(Hongshan), WLR_LN, WLR_BA in f4 statistics.
    What are the uniparentals of the WLR specimens?

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Wang et al got ~5% Jomon ancestry in Koreans vs ~15% in Japanese, at least with Northern Chinese as baseline. Check up supp. mat. section S17.
    Wow, there it is. The PCA didn't lie.

    Is there any archaeological or other evidence for the Jomon culture existing or interacting with Korea, or is a better explanation gene flow between Japan and Korea during or after the migrations of the Yayoi period?

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Richardrli View Post
    Broadly speaking, what's the main difference in the composition of Koreans and Japanese? Do Japanese for instance have more of a "Southern" rice farmer (or just Southern East Asian, not necessarily rice farmer) like component in their gene pool that Koreans by and large do not have, or perhaps Koreans have more of a "Mongolic" like component that Japanese for the most part do not have? It's interesting to tease out the differences between these two closely related groups.
    I think Japanese have more of a rice farmer-like component than Koreans, judging from how they score on HarrapaWorld and MDLP K23b calculators. They may also have different levels of "Coastal Ghost" as well- this could explain some of the extra "SEA-like" signal among Coastal Northern Chinese relative to Inland Northern Chinese.

    Another possible source of extra rice farmer component is historic and modern-era Chinese immigration from more southern parts of China, which there seems to be documented evidence of. Chinese Japanese are mostly of Fujian, Guangdong, and Taiwanese ancestry; by comparison a lot of Chinese Koreans seem to be of Shandong/Dongbei ancestry or even ethnic Korean.

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  7. #35
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    Currently extra Andaman_HG in Japanese compared to Koreans is entirely explanable by extra-Jomon in Japanese.
    WLR_LN population with southern affinity impacted Koreans more than Japanese. This is counter-balanced by WLR_BA with northern nomad affinity impacting Koreans more.
    The crowning achievement of modern population genetics in East Asia has been that there has been very little Chinese contribution to Korean genetics during historical times.
    Likewise Korean contribution to Japanese genetics ended fairly early too. This time well into historic period but nonetheless it ended around the 8th century in the aftermath of the unification of the Korean peninsula.

    "Oh yeah I heard that Japan was peopled by Chinese sailors" etc. etc. are just popular urban legends that cater to Chinese psyche, nothing more.
    Manchuria did not become Chinese until 1945 or so. How is historic "Dongbei" Chinese? I want to know.

  8. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybmpark View Post
    Manchuria did not become Chinese until 1945 or so. How is historic "Dongbei" Chinese? I want to know.
    Southern Manchuria was settled by Han Chinese colonists during the Ming Dynasty, but most of the present day Dongbei population is descended from 19th and early 20th century immigrants from Shandong and Hebei provinces in China proper.

    As for ethnic Chinese immigrants to Japan and Korea...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chines...le_individuals
    Most of the people on this list are from the southern provinces or Taiwan.

    The Yokohama Chinatown community is allegedly of mostly Cantonese origin.
    Yokohama Chinatown (Japanese: 横浜中華街, Hepburn: Yokohama chūkagai) is located in Yokohama, Japan, which is located just south of Tokyo. Its history is about 160 years long. Today, only a few Chinese people still live in Chinatown, but it has a population of about 3,000 to 4,000. Most of the residents are from Guangzhou (Canton), but many come from other regions.
    Many Chinese-inspired Japanese dishes are inspired by dishes from southern Chinese provinces. Champon and pepper steak are believed to have originated from Fujian.

    Champon was first served by Shikairō (四海楼, literally “Four Seas House”), a Chinese restaurant founded in Nagasaki in 1899. According to the restaurant's website, this was based on a dish in Fujian cuisine, 湯肉絲麵[1] (pronounced as tó̤ng nṳ̀ sí mīng in Min Bei), literally “hot-water meat thread noodles”. In the middle of the Meiji era (late 1800s, early 1900s), the owner saw a need for a cheap, filling meal that suited the palates of hundreds of Chinese students who came to Japan for school. Nowadays, champon is a popular specialty food (or meibutsu) of Nagasaki.[2]

    As for ethnic Chinese (not Joseonjok) immigration to Korea...

    Unlike in other Asian countries, 90% of the early overseas Chinese in Korea came from Shandong, rather than the southern coastal provinces of Guangdong and Fujian.[47] During the late 19th and early 20th century Shandong was hard hit by famine, drought, and banditry especially in its northwest, and caused many to migrate to other parts of Shandong, China, and Korea.[48]

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  10. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by okarinaofsteiner View Post
    Southern Manchuria was settled by Han Chinese colonists during the Ming Dynasty,
    But they were restricted to lower Liao river and even they were wiped out by Manchu.

    Quote Originally Posted by okarinaofsteiner View Post
    As for ethnic Chinese immigrants to Japan and Korea...
    That is like saying Americans have partial southern Chinese ancestry because the early immigrants in the late 19th century were mostly from southern provinces.

    Certain Y haplogroups such as O1b1-M95 found in low frequencies among Japanese but nearly completely absent among Koreans may represent historic Chinese immigration to Japan but then again it may not.
    It is nothing substantial anyway.

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  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by ybmpark View Post
    But they were restricted to lower Liao river and even they were wiped out by Manchu.
    Eh, Shenyang had a large Han population throughout its history, including under the early Manchus (their state was extremely sinified since its inception).
    Quoted from this Forum:

    "Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!"

  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryukendo View Post
    Eh, Shenyang had a large Han population throughout its history, including under the early Manchus (their state was extremely sinified since its inception).
    Who were the "King of Shimyang" during the Mongol Empire?
    Koreans have been always there until the Manchu invited Chinese after the intial masscacre.
    Koryo King or royal members who served as king of shimyang sometimes drafted as many as 20000 from that region at the request of Mongol court to suppress Chinese rebels when only 8000 could be drafted from Korea proper.

    The hereditary regional ruling family was also Korean at the end of Ming era.
    They themselves explicitly said so, when the 李成梁, the ruler of the region, said to his son 李如松 the leading general of the Ming troops dispatched to Korea to repel Japanese invasion.
    He said the son should not be aftraid to die in that war because it is their ancestral homeland.
    There have been Chinese attempts to claim that the family was Jurnchen, not Korean but that is prettly silly since the family is one of the most prominet ones dating back to middle Koryo period or earlier.

    Also ethnic Koreans were classified as "Chinese" by the Manchu.
    So Chinese on paper are not necessarily all Chinese.
    During the Ching era Korean envoy encountered mostly ethnic Koreans on their way to Beijing.
    Upon realizing this the servants to the envoy often acted very barbarously toward the ethnic Korean residents causing diplomatic embarrassment to the Korean court.

    Ethnic Chinese were nearly wiped out at the intial Manchu conquest and it is well documented.
    It is the one of the most horrific mass killing in history easily exceeding Holocaust.
    Survivors sought refuge often in Korea and this also caused a lot of problem.
    All these are very well documented.

    Later Chinese were allowed back in but were forced to stay under "Willow Palisade" around the lower Liao valley.
    Manchu were greatly disturbed when Chinese broke this rule at the end of Ching era.
    They would be turning in their graves if they saw Chinese in Harbin acting as if they were natives.

  14. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by okarinaofsteiner View Post
    I think Japanese have more of a rice farmer-like component than Koreans, judging from how they score on HarrapaWorld and MDLP K23b calculators. They may also have different levels of "Coastal Ghost" as well- this could explain some of the extra "SEA-like" signal among Coastal Northern Chinese relative to Inland Northern Chinese.

    Another possible source of extra rice farmer component is historic and modern-era Chinese immigration from more southern parts of China, which there seems to be documented evidence of. Chinese Japanese are mostly of Fujian, Guangdong, and Taiwanese ancestry; by comparison a lot of Chinese Koreans seem to be of Shandong/Dongbei ancestry or even ethnic Korean.
    Interestingly, if you call it a ghostly coastal population, for example, an admixture of the population of Luzon island. Island according to Wikipedia, Luzon is also the only place where the P*, P1*, and very rare P2 branches are found together, and the proportion of haplogroup K2b1 is high.

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