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Thread: L859 and Beit ha-Meqdash family

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    L859 and Beit ha-Meqdash family

    This about Shallum Ben Hushiel, known to Arabs as Salman al-Farsi. There is a story that After the success of Salman al-Farsi’s strategy in the battle of the trench, a lively argument began between the two groups of the believers, the Muhajireen and the Ansar, with each of them claiming Salman belonged to their group and not to the other one. Muhammad arrived on the scene and heard the argument. He put an end to the argument by saying: "Salman is neither Muhajir nor Ansar. He is one of the Ahl al-Beit”
    Ahl al Bait was understood as to mean “that he is member of prophet’s Household”, that he considered Shallum as a member of his family. But seemingly the true meaning of this was that there was a knowledge about his background that Shallum was “member of the [ruling] family of Beit [ha-Miqdash]” - Jerusalem.
    His brother, Nehemiah ben Hushiel, was aided by Sassanians against Heraclius and after they took Jerusalem, he was appointed ruler of Jerusalem. However, short time after this Christians revolted against Jewish rule and Nehemiah and almost all his family was killed (note the similarity with death of Ali and Hussein). Only Shallum managed to escape. Sassanians would stop their support for the Jews (note the similarity with the betrayal of Kufans to Hussein). The period of Nehemiah was as short as that of Ali, and his death was as tragic as that of Hussein. Shallum’s son Yakov ben ٍShallum, known as Ka’ab al-ahbar, was appointed Exlirach of Jerusalem after the Arab conquest (hence his title Cheif Rabbi) , but was later deposed by Omar after the pig incident. He would later be known by his enemies supporters of the Christian faction as Ibn Saba’ or Ibn al-Sawda when he started his propaganda against the Christian faction (Othman, Mwayah) in favor of Ahl beit ha-meqdash as the rightful pretenders for the throne.

    This introduction is to start discussion of L859. This all explain why Ahl ha-beit TMRCA is 1350 ago (all were killed in massacre of Jerusalem) and why their most close relatives from. 3000ypp are Askenazi Jews, with a huge gap in between.
    Ironically, Abdel Malik ben Marwan (Ben Marwan = from mount Moriah in Jerusalem جبل المروة) who considered him self the second David and rebuilt the third temple, is from the Christian adversary faction. (Edited to avoid politics)
    Last edited by rzak; 12-06-2020 at 02:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rzak View Post
    This about Shallum Ben Hushiel, known to Arabs as Salman al-Farsi. There is a history that After the success of Salman al-Farsi’s strategy in the battle of the trench, a lively argument began between the two groups of the believers, the Muhajireen and the Ansar, with each of them claiming Salman belonged to their group and not to the other one. Muhammad arrived on the scene and heard the argument. He put an end to the argument by saying: "Salman is neither Muhajir nor Ansar. He is one of the Ahl al-Beit”
    Ahl al Bait was understood as to mean “that he is member Of prophet’s Household”, that he considered Shallum as a member of his family. But seemingly the true meaning of this was that there was a knowledge about his background that Shallum was “member of the [ruling] family of Beit [ha-Miqdash]” - Jerusalem.
    His brother Nehemiah sided with Sassanians against Heraclius and after they took Jerusalem, he was appointed ruler of Jerusalem. However, short time after this Christians revolted against Jewish rule and Nehemiah and almost all his family was killed (note the similarity with death of Ali and Hussein). Only Shallum managed to escape. Sassanian would stop their support for the Jews (not the similarity with the betrayal of Kufans to Hussein). The period of Nehemiah was as short as that of Ali, and his death was as tragic as that of Hussein. Shallum’s son Yakov Ben Hushiel, known as Ka’ab al-ahbar, was appointed Exlirach of Jerusalem after the Arab conquest (hence his title Chefe Rabi) , but was later deposed by Omar after the pig incident. He would later be known by his enemies supporters of the Christian faction as Ibn Saba’ or Ibn al-Sawda when he started his propaganda against the Christian faction (Othman, Mwayah) in favor of Ahl beit ha-meqdash as the rightful pretenders for the throne.

    This introduction is to start discussion of L859. This all explain why Ahl ha-beit TMRCA is 1350 ago (all were killed at massacre of Jerusalem) and why their most close relatives from. 3000ypp are Askenazi Jews, with a huge gap in between.
    It could have significant consequences because this means that the Royal family of Jordan are the rightful guardians of the third temple built on Mount Moriah by Abdel Malik ben Marwan (Abdel Malik of Mount Moriah -جبل المروة- in Jerusalem)
    I don't know too much about this but certainly plausible. You should know though that Nehemiah was an appointed exilarch, the rightful title went to Bustenai in 640 and his line. This has nothing to do with guardianship of Mount Moriah because that does not have to do with family line. Who has rightful guardianship there threatens to veer into politics so we shouldn't go there.
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    Just ignore politics and let us comment only on genealogy/history.

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    Bostanai was appointed by Omar as Ras al-Galut رأس الغالوت Rosh ha-Galut after he deposed Yakov. Omar had given order that any Muslim who would not bow to Ras al-Galut and say “peace upon you son of David” when his entourage passes in the street, will be severely punished. Followers of the Previous Galut would be known as Gulat غلات الشيعة (objective of Galut). No, ghulat does not mean extremists!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat
    Last edited by rzak; 12-05-2020 at 10:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rzak View Post
    Bostanai was appointed by Omar as Ras al-Galut رأس الغالوت Rosh ha-Galut after he deposed Yakov. Omar had given order that any Muslim who would not bow to Ras al-Galut and say “peace upon you son of David” when his entourage passes in the street, will be severely punished. Followers of the Previous Galut would be known as Gulat غلات الشيعة (objective of Galut)
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghulat
    Don't know much about these specific policies of Omar, he was relatively good to the Jews in Israel I believe. My tradition sees it a bit differently from the Islamic if I understood this correctly. I read about it a bit. The 33rd exilarch was Hananya, this seems to be agreed upon. After his execution, for 50 years there was no exilarch until Bustenai, his son was appointed, in the Jewish tradition I think. You believe that the title rightfully went to Hananya's younger brother Hushiel, and then to his son Shallum and then to his son Yakov before Bustenai was appointed. I don't think the Jewish tradition recognizes these three as exilarchs if I'm not mistaken, whereas the Islamic tradition has respect for them and does view them this way.
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    I am not discussing the rightful exilarch. I am aware of execution of Hananyah and appointment of Nehemiah by Khosrau. Histories of Yakov and Shallum exist in Jewish sources.
    Nehemiah is from house of Ephraim son of Joseph, not of David, hence he was the would be Messiah ben Joseph (as Ali was the would be prophet according to Gulats).
    I do not speak from Islamic point of view, but of historical and facts point of view.
    I am here to discuss the true meaning of Ahl Beit [ha-Meqdash] and how it applies to L859.
    Later I will write about the striking similarities between Nehemiah, Yakov, Shallum, Bostanai, the Karaites moviment and their schism and stories about Ahl al-Beit [ha-Meqdash]
    Yes, Nehemiah was appointed, but he was considered the would be expected messiah by the Jewish world at that time. He was recognized by Jews and he did not seize his position. He was valiant fighter, leader and mystic, exactly as it is said about Ali ben Abi Taleb (who also was claimed to be the would be prophet by Ghulats).

    An example of these similarities : Bostanai was given for wife the daughter of the last Persian king Yezdegerd (given to him by Omar in Jewish sources). In a problematic Islamic narrative, Hussein ben Ali ben abi Taleb was also given the daughter of Yesdegerd by Omar.
    Last edited by rzak; 12-05-2020 at 10:28 PM.

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    I don't think you can say the Jewish world viewed him as the expected messiah. One book, Sefer Zerubavel, considered by many Rabbis even at that time to be unreliable suggested that he was Moshiach ben Yosef but this was not universal opinion. Ultimately, looking at L859 I think your theory is plausible, in the sense that the Arab lineage descends from converted Jews. My question is, is there any specific evidence that L859 came from the specific Jews you are referring to, or just any Jews that may have converted to Islam at that time, whether in Israel or in the Arabian Peninsula?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    I don't think you can say the Jewish world viewed him as the expected messiah. One book, Sefer Zerubavel, considered by many Rabbis even at that time to be unreliable suggested that he was Moshiach ben Yosef but this was not universal opinion. Ultimately, looking at L859 I think your theory is plausible, in the sense that the Arab lineage descends from converted Jews. My question is, is there any specific evidence that L859 came from the specific Jews you are referring to, or just any Jews that may have converted to Islam at that time, whether in Israel or in the Arabian Peninsula?
    By studying the historical events written about Ali/Salman (Shallum)/Ka'b al-Ahbar (Yakov) and those about House of Nehemia, I can see the parallels and similarities between the two, that surely are not accidental. The story about how Salman was described as member of family of Beit ha-Meqdash makes this more plausible. I find L859 the only plausible SNP for House of Nehemia/Shallum/Ali, given the TMRCA 1350ybp, descending from Jews with TMRCA 3000ybp.
    Initially the followers of this movement were not called Muslims, but believers, and they could be Jewish or Christian. The Civil war probably was between those two factions, as well as between jewish factions later. For example, Uthman ben Affan was Christian. Here what Ibn Ishaq wrote about him 180 years later: .. Waraqa decided Christianity and followed the books of its teachers until he had obtained knowledge of the scripture. Ubaydullah remained in doubt until, after the revelation, he made profession of Islam and went to Abyssinia but when he arrived there he became a Christian and died thus, after having renounced Islam. third, Uthman, went to Byzantium, where he became a Christian and attained high office.."
    Christian faction emerged victorious from the second civil war, with the ascension of Muawiyah and the Christian Umayyads (until conversion of Marwan).
    But I think things were even more complicated. There was probably also conflict between Babylonian rabbinic Judaism and Sadducees, then the Schism of Karaite Judaism. Note this same story of Karaite Judaism is also told about Ali and his bloody conflict with Kara'at al-Quran (read Karaites - later known as Kharijites), who were his followers, but a schism occurred for not very clear reasons. But I need to see when first reference to the Kara'at was done to see if this is correct.
    Another similarity is the battle of Siffin. There is a narration that Ka'b al-Ahbar (Yakov ben Shallum) said that in the same place a battle had occurred between Followers of Nehemia and thousands of Jewish souls were lost.
    Last edited by rzak; 12-07-2020 at 11:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkotl0327 View Post
    My question is, is there any specific evidence that L859 came from the specific Jews you are referring to, or just any Jews that may have converted to Islam at that time, whether in Israel or in the Arabian Peninsula?
    Similarity of history of House of Nehemiah and Ahl al-Beit indicates that it is about the same lineage.

    During Abbasid era, historians Arabized the Jewish history and their internal conflicts and their conflicts with the Christians during Byzantine-Sassanid wars (Muawiyah I) and incorporated it into the Arabic history. Due to big time lapse and forgotten tradition and history, they sometimes used several names to refer to the same person, shifted some historic events in time, extended lives of some persons, sometimes invented fictitious personalities.
    Last edited by rzak; 12-08-2020 at 12:38 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rzak View Post
    Similarity of history of House of Nehemiah and Ahl al-Beit indicates that it is about the same lineage.

    During Abbasid era, historians Arabized the Jewish history and their internal conflicts and their conflicts with the Christians during Byzantine-Sassanid wars (Muawiyah I) and incorporated it into the Arabic history. Due to big time lapse and forgotten tradition and history, they sometimes used several names to refer to the same person, shifted some historic events in time, extended lives of some persons, sometimes invented fictitious personalities.
    I see, certainly interesting reply I never paid much attention to this lineage in the past.
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