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Thread: So, my maternal grandfather was R1b-Z253. What can you tell me about that?

  1. #1
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    So, my maternal grandfather was R1b-Z253. What can you tell me about that?

    My mother's maiden name was Gist. This morning a Gist relative in the same Y-chromosome line got his Big Y-700 results, which place him in R1b-FGC59523.

    Here's the phylogenetic pedigree, beginning with great-great-great, etc. grandpa R-M207:

    M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310> L151>P312>Z290> L21>DF13>ZZ10>Z253>FGC3268>ZZ6>BY43439>BY4303> FGC59516>FGC59535> FGC59523

    For several years, from the very beginning of the rediscovery of L21, I was the admin of the L21 Project, and I even discovered a couple of Z253 haplotype clusters myself. But since then I have not kept up with Z253, so maybe you all can bring me up to date.

    My maternal grandfather's surname, Gist, is most frequent in Devon.

    Gist map.jpg

    So, was my maternal grandfather derived for that terminal SNP, FGC59523? Honestly, I don't know. The MRCA he and this Gist relative share was Nathaniel Gist. He was born about 1707, so some branching could have occurred a SNP or two back down the tree in the direction of the root. Thus my grandfather's terminal SNP might be something other than FGC59523.

    Still, they will share most of that pedigree, so I am in the ballpark with these results.

    BTW, here's something pretty amazing: the subject of these Big Y-700 results passed away back in 2012. FTDNA used his sample from their cold storage, a sample he submitted back in 2004!

    When this man's daughter ordered the upgrade for him, it was accompanied by some fervent prayers from me. Thanks to You, God! I am grateful for these results!
    Last edited by rms2; 12-22-2020 at 08:54 PM.

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  3. #2
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    BTW, this Big Y-700 guy has no matches at 111 STRs and above.

    He has a 64/67 match, another Gist, but that's it, because that's as far as that man has tested. The Gists are an undertested bunch.

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  5. #3
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    So, anybody else here R1b-L21 on both sides, paternal line and maternal grandfather? Does that make me kind of inbred?

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    If you're inbred, all of Ireland is! My paternal-line grandfather's maternal grandfather was a Brady of Cavan, and barring an NPE, was Z253>L1066.

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    Shortly after posting Post #3 above, I wound up in the hospital for a couple of days, and did not get home until around sunset on Christmas Eve. By that time, I didn't care much about anything but how lousy I felt, and I wanted to go back to sleep.

    I'm not fully back - not even close - but I was hoping some Z253 expert could tell me a little about the line my maternal grandfather was on, if there is much of anything known about it.

    Nothing spectacular about how I wound up in the hospital: I fell down the stairs, hit my head, and broke both my arms - the left not too terribly badly, but the right is a mess. I have no memory of the fall down the stairs or how it happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Shortly after posting Post #3 above, I wound up in the hospital for a couple of days, and did not get home until around sunset on Christmas Eve. By that time, I didn't care much about anything but how lousy I felt, and I wanted to go back to sleep.

    I'm not fully back - not even close - but I was hoping some Z253 expert could tell me a little about the line my maternal grandfather was on, if there is much of anything known about it.

    Nothing spectacular about how I wound up in the hospital: I fell down the stairs, hit my head, and broke both my arms - the left not too terribly badly, but the right is a mess. I have no memory of the fall down the stairs or how it happened.
    Hey, Rich - I'm glad you're ok, and get better, man. Merry Christmas to you and the family!

    Welcome to the ZZ10 club! I do belong to Z253's brother clade after all, Z255, although I reckon you're of more esteemed heritage lol.

    Greg Hockings used to be my contact for Z253 guys, used to mix em up among the Z255 fellows. He would know much more about it, no doubt.
    yDNA: R1b-BY17850 (England?)
    Maternal grandfather (MDKA: Johannes Nicholas Schaefer, Saxony-Anhalt, Germany) - yDNA: R1b-U106, mtDNA: T2b
    Maternal grandmother (MDKA: Angelina Centrella, Avellino, Campania, Italia) - mtDNA: HV4a1


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  13. #7
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    Thanks!

    Well, I have to amend things a bit, thanks to developments on FTDNA's end.

    Turns out kit 25861 (my Gist relative) is actually ancestral for FGC59523 but derived for FGC37526, which, according to FTDNA, will necessitate a change to the phylogenetic tree.

    Meanwhile, they're listing him everywhere as R-FGC59516 (I prefer R1b-FGC59516) until things get sorted out. FGC59516 is a couple of spots back down the tree in the direction of the root, so it's a good, conservative placeholder while we wait.

    That's good for me, since my maternal grandfather was probably derived for that one.
    Last edited by rms2; 12-30-2020 at 12:53 AM.

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    Okay, as of this morning, FTDNA has amended my Gist relative's status and shows him as R-BY93500 (R1b-BY93500).

    I think that will probably do it for a while, since it reflects a change in the Z253 tree.

    Here's the BY93500 phylogeny:

    M207>M173>M343>L754>L389>P297>M269>L23>L51>P310> L151>P312>Z290> L21>DF13>ZZ10>Z253>FGC3268>ZZ6>BY43439>BY4303>FGC59516>BY93500

    Anyway, this is good stuff. It keeps this hobby interesting.
    Last edited by rms2; 12-30-2020 at 04:00 PM.

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    Doesn't look like Z253 stirs up much general interest.

    It is early morning here, and I am tired, so I might not be as sharp as I could be, but it appears that currently YFull's tree only goes as far as FGC3628 in my Gist cousin's Y-chromosome line, as seen here.

    That's only one step downstream of Z253 itself, so not too far, with a TMRCA of 4000 ybp.

    Here's how things look for my Gist cousin from FGC3268 on:

    FGC3268>ZZ6>BY43439>BY4303>FGC59516>BY93500
    Last edited by rms2; 01-09-2021 at 11:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Doesn't look like Z253 stirs up much general interest.

    It is early morning here, and I am tired, so I might not be as sharp as I could be, but it appears that currently YFull's tree only goes as far as FGC3628 in my Gist cousin's Y-chromosome line, as seen here.

    That's only one step downstream of Z253 itself, so not too far, with a TMRCA of 4000 ybp.

    Here's how things look for my Gist cousin from FGC3268 on:

    FGC3268>ZZ6>BY43439>BY4303>FGC59516>BY93500
    At least more interesting than DF63
    LivingDNA 2021

    West Iberia 49.1%
    South Italy 28.8%
    Scotland and Ireland 5.4%
    England and Wales 5.1%
    East Iberia 4.4%
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    Arabia 2.2%
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