Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 59

Thread: The Likely DNA Of Predynastic Egyptian Mummies?

  1. #1
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5
    Sex
    Location
    Georgia
    Ethnicity
    Black-American
    Nationality
    USA

    The Likely DNA Of Predynastic Egyptian Mummies?

    To those who are familiar with the predynastic Gebelein mummies of ancient Egypt. What do you predict would be their DNA profile if their DNA could be extracted? Looking at the hair textures of both the woman and man. The woman seems to have straight hair and the man has wavy to curly hair. What could you conclude about them from this? Are they likely to have Eurasian or native African DNA?


    The woman's hair:

    https://images.app.goo.gl/ThWxU7R2LZevL7EV9



    Close up of the man's hair:

    https://www.newsweek.com/gebelein-ma...ebelein-826622

  2. The Following User Says Thank You to Motion For This Useful Post:

     Hando (12-28-2020)

  3. #2
    Registered Users
    Posts
    1,313
    Sex
    Location
    Central Florida
    Ethnicity
    Aegean Greek + NW Euro
    Nationality
    American
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-L26
    mtDNA (M)
    J1b1a

    Greece United States of America
    I see you're new here, but realize we've already got a ton of threads on Egyptians in which you could have posted this question, including a very active one going on right now ("Autosomal of Egyptian Pharaohs") in which this sort of thing is being discussed ad infinitum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Motion View Post
    What could you conclude about them from this?
    Nothing. Hair texture is useless here, especially in a place like Northeast Africa where wavy to curly to wiry hair can be commonly found among West Eurasians/North Africans (Copts and most Muslim Egyptians) and neighboring West Eurasian+SSA mixes (Horners, Sudanese Arabs, Nubians, Beja) to the south. We should expect to find a lot of hair texture variety in ancient Egypt (from bone straight to woolly). That's obvious just looking at the ancient frescos and the Fayum portraits. SSA ancestry in modern Egyptians might beat up the frequency of curlier hair, but it's obvious curly hair was already very much present in antiquity when Egyptians didn't have as much SSA ancestry as they do today, at least according to the ancient DNA we have so far and the rumored leaks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Motion View Post
    To those who are familiar with the predynastic Gebelein mummies of ancient Egypt. What do you predict would be their DNA profile if their DNA could be extracted? Are they likely to have Eurasian or native African DNA?
    Yes to both, since they're not mutually exclusive. These guys are likely going to be some kind of Natufian-like+Levant Neolithic mix. I'm not sure if Iran Chalcolithic ancestry got to Egypt by this time, but once you add that in the mix you basically get ancient Egyptians. Add a little more SSA and you get modern Copts. Add a little Islamic era Near Eastern ancestry and you get Muslim Egyptians. Egypt is becoming less mysterious all the time. It's a matter of time before ancient DNA blows the lid right off the sarcophagus and there will be nothing left to debate.
    Ελευθερία ή θάνατος.

  4. The Following 31 Users Say Thank You to Michalis Moriopoulos For This Useful Post:

     Adamm (12-28-2020),  Agamemnon (01-25-2021),  Atlas (12-28-2020),  Awale (12-30-2020),  Brent.B (01-08-2021),  Bygdedweller (12-28-2020),  Cabaon (12-28-2020),  cardinale389 (12-28-2020),  Cascio (12-28-2020),  DMXX (12-28-2020),  drobbah (12-28-2020),  Gadzooks (12-28-2020),  Grossvater (12-28-2020),  grumpydaddybear (12-29-2020),  Helen (12-30-2020),  Helves (12-28-2020),  jkotl0327 (12-28-2020),  JoeyP37 (12-28-2020),  Luso (01-25-2021),  Meres (01-13-2021),  pegasus (12-28-2020),  Ruderico (12-28-2020),  Seabass (12-28-2020),  Shanck (12-28-2020),  Sorcelow (12-28-2020),  SUPREEEEEME (12-28-2020),  Táltos (12-28-2020),  The Saite (12-28-2020),  theplayer (12-28-2020),  VladimirTaraskin (12-28-2020),  XXD (12-28-2020)

  5. #3
    Registered Users
    Posts
    5
    Sex
    Location
    Georgia
    Ethnicity
    Black-American
    Nationality
    USA

    Wouldn't the hair texture on those mummies rule them out as being Nubian peoples of that time? Some people believe the predynastic Egyptian population was made up of Nubian peoples. I'm assuming Nubians of that time period would mostly be woolly haired people.

  6. #4
    Registered Users
    Posts
    186
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Lur + Persian
    Y-DNA (P)
    G2a

    Iran Pahlavi Dynasty Canada AchaemenidEmpire1 Iran Sassanid Empire
    Quote Originally Posted by Motion View Post
    Wouldn't the hair texture on those mummies rule them out as being Nubian peoples of that time? Some people believe the predynastic Egyptian population was made up of Nubian peoples. I'm assuming Nubians of that time period would mostly be woolly haired people.
    I don't think it's logical to base ancestry off hair texture alone. Egypt is at the cross road between the levant and SSA. Based on it's position alone, you can assume that both modern and ancient inhabitants of egypt were mostly levant-like population with SSA influence. The hair texture can vary from individuals depending on their SSA admixture of course. But they are for the most part a levant-like population
     

    Target: Xeon_scaled
    Distance: 2.7735% / 0.02773461

    33.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    20.6 Levant_PPNC
    18.4 TUR_Barcin_N
    14.4 GEO_CHG
    13.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    0.4 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N

    Target: Xeon_scaled
    Distance: 2.2807% / 0.02280652

    37.0 Kura-Araxes_ARM_Kaps
    24.0 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    17.4 Levant_PPNB
    11.2 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    4.4 Anatolia_Barcin_N
    4.0 Anatolia_Tepecik_Ciftlik_N
    1.4 Nganassan
    0.6 MAR_Taforalt

  7. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Xeon For This Useful Post:

     grumpydaddybear (12-29-2020),  Luso (01-25-2021),  Shanck (12-28-2020)

  8. #5
    Administrator
    Posts
    4,586
    Sex
    Y-DNA (P)
    R2a*-M124 (L295-)
    mtDNA (M)
    D4j5*

    Further to Michalis' point, hair texture - and even colour - are (from a biological but admittedly subjective* standpoint) highly unspecific in ascertaining the ancestral origins of a particular mummy.

    Due to environmental and temporal factors influencing the rates of keratin and (eu)melanin degradation, the pre-mortem hair of a given individual may (or may not) match the post-mortem appearance.

    This is why anthropologists (or indeed, any non-anthropologist with a biology background who explores the literature) will accept the likelihood that the post-mortem appearance of a mummy's hair should not be considered a reliable indication of how it appeared in their living state.
    This is also why endless numbers of lay individuals cite "red-haired mummies from the Americas" to justify certain hypotheses.

    Around 2010, with the intention of seeking confirmation that all the light-haired Tarim mummies shouldn't be assumed to have been so pre-mortem, I'd directly communicated with JP Mallory via email regarding this topic. Naturally, he agreed (with the obvious caveat concerning light-pigmented individuals being depicted in various frescos).

    Using hair to argue for "W. Eurasian admix in X mummy" / "Sub-Saharan admix in Y mummy" is certainly less reliable than, say, craniometry (if one were compelled to focus on physical evidence in lieu of the genetic, for whatever reason).

    * There does not appear to be any statistical data in the literature concerning the correlation between phenotypically "light-haired" mummies with their genotype. Thus, all assessments are subjective. However, the one outlined above is rooted in biological fact.
    Last edited by DMXX; 12-28-2020 at 01:19 PM. Reason: line; edit

  9. The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to DMXX For This Useful Post:

     Agamemnon (01-25-2021),  Alfa (01-25-2021),  Awale (12-30-2020),  Brandon S. Pilcher (12-29-2020),  Cascio (12-28-2020),  Ebizur (12-28-2020),  grumpydaddybear (12-29-2020),  Helves (12-28-2020),  Michalis Moriopoulos (12-28-2020),  pegasus (12-28-2020),  pmokeefe (12-28-2020),  Ruderico (12-28-2020),  Shanck (12-28-2020),  Táltos (12-28-2020),  The Saite (12-28-2020),  theplayer (12-28-2020)

  10. #6
    Registered Users
    Posts
    193
    Sex
    Location
    Sydney
    Ethnicity
    Egyptian Copt
    Y-DNA (P)
    E-M78 (E-V22)
    mtDNA (M)
    T1a7
    Y-DNA (M)
    E-M78 (E-PF3198)
    mtDNA (P)
    M1a1

    Egypt Australia
    Well, The guys pretty much responded and made every good point possible. Tho I think you will relate better their purposes if you knew an example from the Biased Author Robin walker in his book, When We Ruled; Page:278 if you can access it (since I couldn't find the free copy link I downloaded before). The Author basically claims every straight haired mummy available from Egypt is a result from Hair damage. While some other Authors from my reading experience claimed as well that every Curly mummy available is resulted from hair damage - Regardless the situation of which is right and not - It's generally a bad Idea to conclude race from Hair due to multiple reasons of which some were in details highlighted by DMXX.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michalis Moriopoulos View Post
    Add a little more SSA and you get modern Copts. Add a little Islamic era Near Eastern ancestry and you get Muslim Egyptians..
    Little thing to add. According to Historean El Makrizzy, the wealthy Christian Egyptian members practiced in the Slave admixture in a similar manner of their Muslim counterparts (Example : they also Male Castrated the slaves). Tho it was less intense and many occasional rulers prevented the Copts from having slaves from time to time. Although the identity of these slaves weren't mentioned, but I don't think they were of a Yoruba type (these were sold after being converted Islam) they can rather be Christian from Nubia or East Africa. The Bakt treaty was important in these Trades as well, it was between the medieval rulers of Egypt and Christian Nubia. And it demands the later state to send 360 Slave per year to Egypt. I bet if they were Christian then there might have been attempts to rather favor them by The Egyptian Christians. This specific point I have read somewhere as well, yet in order to be more detailed than such poor words of mine. I have to memorize and re-search the sources. And this will be necessary since more Egyptian Results come out every while.

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo View Post
    How much Eurasian versus Dinka type of ancestry was there in older Egyptian kingdoms, notably from Upper Egypt remains to be seen though.
    Yeah right, worth to note also that the Dinka_like they are going to have Is likely in majority to be through the Female side, a similar situation of Haplogroup A turning over to mostly E in Sudanse published Neolthic aDNA, and the same as the Paternal based travelling South Pastrolists. You shouldn't use Iran_Seh_Gebi Chalcolithic to model Egyptians too, such Component was specific to the Levant Bronze Age. Appearing together with J-Z2331 Subclades. And Copts don't carry those rather mostly carry Early J1 types and J2. Something similar to Turkmenistan_EN. Hence using Iran Neolithic source will be making more sense now (remember Tell Kurdo in EC Levant carried early J1 type not Z2331 Downstreams). Still the question of how much the Egyptians carry additional Iran_Chal over Iran Neolthic (if late Egyptians were Levant_BA shifted and early Egyptians turned to be having Iran ancestry) Remains hard to be answered. I guess for that we need a simple model of Old kingdoms With Lev_BA and see how the Late period and current Egyptians behave.
    Edit : The Sudanese Coptic YDNA study is almost very different from the unPublished Egyptian Coptic YDNA study as well as the plenty testers we have from 23andme relative menu. Tho Sudanse copts were used in some Autosomal studies as pure Egyptian representatives, but these studies had removed the Sudanese/East African shifted outliers first. If any wonder about it.
    Last edited by The Saite; 12-28-2020 at 05:48 PM.
    Autosomal using ancient populations :
    93% Late Period Ancient Egyptian, 4% JOR_EBA, 3% GRC_Minoan_Lassithi (Just another G25's Scaled results with a Suitable fit).

  11. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to The Saite For This Useful Post:

     Andrewid (01-24-2021),  grumpydaddybear (12-29-2020),  Michalis Moriopoulos (12-28-2020),  Shanck (12-28-2020)

  12. #7
    Registered Users
    Posts
    510
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Arab
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-y15222
    mtDNA (M)
    L1b2a

    Distance: 2.9281% / 0.02928058
    Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun012
    40.1 Early_European_Farmer
    39.8 Iberomaurusian
    7.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
    6.5 Early_Levantine_Farmer
    5.9 Africa_Mesolithic
    0.4 Caucasus_Hunter-gatherer
    0.3 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Distance: 2.1512% / 0.02151154
    Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun011
    37.9 Iberomaurusian
    37.6 Early_European_Farmer
    8.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
    5.6 Early_Levantine_Farmer
    4.8 Africa_Mesolithic
    3.2 Iran_Neolithic
    2.7 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Distance: 2.2143% / 0.02214272
    Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun008
    44.9 Early_European_Farmer
    30.4 Iberomaurusian
    12.0 Steppe_Pastoralist
    6.0 Africa_Mesolithic
    5.9 Early_Levantine_Farmer
    0.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Distance: 2.7399% / 0.02739895
    Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun005
    43.8 Early_European_Farmer
    29.1 Iberomaurusian
    10.6 Steppe_Pastoralist
    7.7 Early_Levantine_Farmer
    4.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
    4.1 Africa_Mesolithic
    0.5 Ancient_Dravidian

    Distance: 3.0570% / 0.03057035
    Target: Canary_Islands_Guanche:gun002
    42.3 Early_European_Farmer
    40.1 Iberomaurusian
    5.9 Steppe_Pastoralist
    4.8 Africa_Mesolithic
    3.1 Early_Levantine_Farmer
    1.9 Iran_Neolithic
    1.8 Ancient_Dravidian
    0.1 Northeastern_Asia_Neolithic

    No we don’t have plenty of ancient North African samples we are lacking in many eras
    Last edited by maroco; 12-28-2020 at 08:28 PM.

  13. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to maroco For This Useful Post:

     Echo (12-28-2020),  grumpydaddybear (12-29-2020),  Shanck (12-28-2020),  The Saite (12-28-2020)

  14. #8
    Registered Users
    Posts
    510
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    Arab
    Y-DNA (P)
    J-y15222
    mtDNA (M)
    L1b2a

    Iberia central Ca doesn’t not plot with modern North Africans

    Distance: 3.7185% / 0.03718469
    Target: Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
    48.2 Early_European_Farmer
    29.4 Iberomaurusian
    12.1 Early_Levantine_Farmer
    8.1 Africa_Mesolithic
    1.8 Ancient_Iberian_Hunter-Gatherer
    0.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Distance to: Iberia_Central_CA_Afr
    0.05413799 Tunisian_Berber_Tamezret
    0.05514729 Tunisian_Berber_Matmata
    0.05568060 Berber_Tunisia_Chen
    0.05577285 Mozabite
    0.05606221 Tunisian_Berber_Zraoua
    0.05727746 Moroccan_North
    0.06463963 Tunisian
    0.06469828 Algerian
    0.06471797 Berber_Tunisia_Sen
    0.06820860 Berber_MAR_ERR
    0.06977882 Saharawi
    0.07073804 Moroccan
    0.07770163 Berber_MAR_TIZ
    0.08026730 Libyan
    0.08954040 Tunisian_Douz
    0.11297958 Tunisian_Rbaya
    0.11656871 Egyptian
    0.15061555 Moroccan_South
    0.15112759 BedouinA
    0.16221990 Libyan_Jew
    0.16232105 Tunisian_Jew
    0.16473604 Yemenite_Dhamar
    0.16499626 Palestinian
    0.16731574 Moroccan_Jew
    0.16819355 Jordanian

    CLEAR OUTPUT MODE - SINGLE MAX OUTPUT NUMBER: ADD GRADIENT - YES
    GRADIENT FROM: GRADIENT TO:
    RUN ALL
    Iberia_Central_CA_Afr

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to maroco For This Useful Post:

     Luso (01-25-2021),  Shanck (12-28-2020)

  16. #9
    Registered Users
    Posts
    570
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    1/2 Italian, 1/2 Armenian
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a

    What do we know about ancient Upper Egyptians?

  17. #10
    Registered Users
    Posts
    570
    Sex
    Ethnicity
    1/2 Italian, 1/2 Armenian
    Nationality
    USA
    Y-DNA (P)
    R1b-U152
    mtDNA (M)
    H5a

    Quote Originally Posted by Xeon View Post
    I don't think it's logical to base ancestry off hair texture alone. Egypt is at the cross road between the levant and SSA. Based on it's position alone, you can assume that both modern and ancient inhabitants of egypt were mostly levant-like population with SSA influence. The hair texture can vary from individuals depending on their SSA admixture of course. But they are for the most part a levant-like population
    Does that apply to Upper Egyptians too?

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. E-M96 aDNA and Egyptian mummies
    By Farroukh in forum E
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 11-04-2020, 11:42 AM
  2. Replies: 14
    Last Post: 09-20-2020, 07:35 AM
  3. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 01-09-2018, 12:23 AM
  4. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-17-2017, 10:59 PM
  5. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 11-26-2016, 02:53 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •