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Thread: The Likely DNA Of Predynastic Egyptian Mummies?

  1. #21
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    This rumor of Old Kingdom aDNA being Levant-like has led to all sorts wild and irrational enthusiasm in this forum. Now, we are to believe that red-haired mummies from the Predynastic were not the result of hair discoloration from mummy treatment and being dead for centuries, but evidence that Predynastic Egyptians were red-haired like Vikings.

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  3. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    This rumor of Old Kingdom aDNA being Levant-like has led to all sorts wild and irrational enthusiasm in this forum. Now, we are to believe that red-haired mummies from the Predynastic were not the result of hair discoloration from mummy treatment and being dead for centuries, but evidence that Predynastic Egyptians were red-haired like Vikings.
    An ancient egyptian being red-haired isn't really that surprising tbh

    here a red-haired egyptian for example :




    Also I think we shouldn't underestimate the analysis itself, scientists can make the difference between "discoloration" and the natural hair color :

    In 1975, the mummy of Ramesses II was taken to France for preservation. The mummy was also forensically tested by Professor Pierre-Fernand Ceccaldi, the chief forensic scientist at the Criminal Identification Laboratory of Paris. Professor Ceccaldi determined that: "Hair, astonishingly preserved, showed some complementary data - especially about pigmentation: Ramses II was a ginger haired 'cymnotricheleucoderma'." The description given here refers to a fair-skinned person with wavy ginger hair.[70][71] Subsequent microscopic inspection of the roots of Ramesses II's hair proved that the king's hair originally was red, which suggests that he came from a family of redheads.[72] This has more than just cosmetic significance: in ancient Egypt people with red hair were associated with the deity Set, the slayer of Osiris, and the name of Ramesses II's father, Seti I, means "follower of Seth."[73]
    the race (of the mummy), by diameters, indices, angles and cranial or facial profiles: is an a priori Berber type. … the hairs, of exceptional interest because of their state of conservation, are fine, supple, slightly wavy by place, of a reddish-blond colour pulling hard towards yellowish. Of oval cross-section, and cross-referencing all other anthropometric observations, they are characteristic of the hair of a “cymotrichous leucoderm", close to the Mediterraneans of Prehistory, like a Berber, of white skin - and not of a Nubian, of black skin.... Microscopic examinations revealed a practically intact morphology and natural red pigments: he was therefore a real redhead.
    https://www.docdroid.net/LSNxsiM/ram...y-analysis-pdf


    The vast majority of hair samples discovered at the Predynastic cemetery site HK43 (Hierakonpolis, Upper Egypt, c.3500 BC) were cymotrichous (Caucasian) in type as opposed to heliotrichous (Negroid), a feature which is standard throughout dynastic times. (…) Although most of the hair found is the natural dark brown color, natural red hair was also discovered ... samples were examined microscopically
    https://www.hierakonpolis-online.org...nn-10-1998.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    This rumor of Old Kingdom aDNA being Levant-like has led to all sorts wild and irrational enthusiasm in this forum. Now, we are to believe that red-haired mummies from the Predynastic were not the result of hair discoloration from mummy treatment and being dead for centuries, but evidence that Predynastic Egyptians were red-haired like Vikings.
    Interesting you should say that. Takabuti, an Egyptian noblewoman from Karnak (660 BC), had natural red/auburn hair and mtDNA H4a1. H4a1 has also been found in numerous Viking samples:



    Djehutynakht, ruler of the Hare Nome in Upper Egypt (2000 BC) had mtDNA U5b2b5, which has also been found in a Viking sample.
    Last edited by Philjames; 01-25-2021 at 09:45 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    This rumor of Old Kingdom aDNA being Levant-like has led to all sorts wild and irrational enthusiasm in this forum. Now, we are to believe that red-haired mummies from the Predynastic were not the result of hair discoloration from mummy treatment and being dead for centuries, but evidence that Predynastic Egyptians were red-haired like Vikings.
    It's Ireland and Britain that have the most red-haired genes.

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    Vikings and SSA fighting over Ancient Egyptians?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    Vikings and SSA fighting over Ancient Egyptians?
    Yeah, let's equate an indigenous origin of Ancient Egypt in Africa with nonsensical ideas of Ancient Egyptians being red-haired Eurasians from the Levant Neolithic or Norway/Sweden/Denmark or whatever argument is being made on this forum these days.

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  13. #27
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    [Attachment 42846QUOTE=Cabaon;740338]An ancient egyptian being red-haired isn't really that surprising tbh

    here a red-haired egyptian for example :




    Also I think we shouldn't underestimate the analysis itself, scientists can make the difference between "discoloration" and the natural hair color :


    [/QUOTE]
    What is more likely? Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs being natural red heads or Ancient Egyptians using henna on mummies?
    Last edited by Mansamusa; 01-25-2021 at 04:16 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    Yeah, let's equate an indigenous origin of Ancient Egypt in Africa with nonsensical ideas of Ancient Egyptians being red-haired Eurasians from the Levant Neolithic or Norway/Sweden/Denmark or whatever argument is being made on this forum these days.
    Steppe red haired R1b elites from Europe theory that eurocentrists like to propagate is indeed ludicrous but Predynastic Egyptians probably had heavy amounts of Neolithic Levantine ancestry considering such ancestry is found among the Early Pastoralists of Kenya

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    Yeah, let's equate an indigenous origin of Ancient Egypt in Africa with nonsensical ideas of Ancient Egyptians being red-haired Eurasians from the Levant Neolithic or Norway/Sweden/Denmark or whatever argument is being made on this forum these days.
    In fairness (hoho), the first part isn't completely weird considering we already have a sample from EBA Jordan that's Levant_N+Iran_N, so not too dissimilar from the ancient Egyptian makeup, which included similar Eurasian, or at least Eurasian-like so as not to get into another argument about Natufians, components along with some East African, and is predicted as having blue eyes and red hair - taking these kinds of predictive models with a grain of salt for the time being but not dismissing them either. It's very plausible that you'll have some ancient Egyptians with no European-related ancestry (and I mention this specifically because I remember a thread based on a misunderstanding from a researcher about certain f-statistics in the mummies paper supposedly showing closer connection to Europe than the Levant) whatsoever who'll turn out to be quite fair overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mansamusa View Post
    Yeah, let's equate an indigenous origin of Ancient Egypt in Africa with nonsensical ideas of Ancient Egyptians being red-haired Eurasians from the Levant Neolithic or Norway/Sweden/Denmark or whatever argument is being made on this forum these days.
    Nobody brought up Scandinavia except you so good job attacking your own strawman. And obviously Egyptians having ancestry from Neolithic Levantines is the equivalent of arguing for ancestry from Scandinavia.
    And there is nothing implausible about some ancient Egyptians having had red or auburn hair. Every West Asian and North African population has a small percentage of red heads.

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