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Thread: Using Greek-related populations to model modern Turks: Feasibility?

  1. #1
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    Using Greek-related populations to model modern Turks: Feasibility?

    Hello all,

    I was wondering who the native ancestors of modern Turks might be. For example, are all Turks partially descended from Cappadocian/Anatolian Greeks? Are northerners partially descended from Pontics? And southerners from a Cypriot-like group?

    I am asking this, because while trying to model Turks, I realized that Cappadocian and Pontic Greeks are actually pretty similar, and I was afraid of overfitting the model. Another thing is that, when you use the Greek_Cappadocia, Greek_Trabzon and TUR_Ottoman:M195 samples, even Turks from far away regions, such as those from the south, get high amounts of Greek_Trabzon.

    I have also noticed that adding an extra Steppe component, such as RUS_Yamnaya_Samara, when only using Greek_Cappadocia and TUR_Ottoman:195 seems to improve the fit by a decent amount and makes the calculator give around 5% extra Steppe to almost all Turks. Other component, such as one from Neolithic Iran, seems to improve the fit for southwestern Turks when used next to Greek_Kos and the Ottoman sample and also seems to give some interesting results.

    Would someone more knowledgeable be willing to shed some light on this subject?
    Last edited by Administrator; 12-30-2020 at 03:50 PM. Reason: Titled changed following user report; no change to the content of this OP.

  2. #2
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    I've managed to model myself as a Cretan Greek, Ossetian and Dungan(!), while the fit is quite good, these are modern populations. Perhaps it shows that to model a Turk as a Greek you need to add a Caucasian/Steppe component (Ossetian) and an Asian/Turkic component (Dungan) to the Greek.
    Last edited by Liquid; 02-06-2021 at 12:58 PM.
    Distance: 2.2682%
    38.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    18.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    8.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    7.4 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
    6.8 Levant_Natufian
    2.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
    99.5% Anatolian, 0.5% Sudanese (23&me)

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  4. #3
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    Turkish people if you remove their 'Turkoman' admixture they coming like Central Anatolian/Cappadocian Greeks.Trabzon people are more caucasus shifted and they represent better the natives of northeast anatolia (from Trabzon/Gumushane,Rize,Artvin).The only regions/provinces where Turkic admixture is limited to absent are EasternBlacksea(Not Giresun inclunding),Eastern Anatolia....where the genetics are more Armenian/Kurdish like(with exception Azeri like folks).The rest of Anatolia is pretty much the same.There is a Levant shift(not crazy amounts) as you go southern in the regions bordering with Syria.(Adana,Mersin,Hatay etc),but keep in mind there are Arabian related populations there.The highest 'Turkoman' admixture can be seen in the more western regions of Anatolia(balikesir etc).So,the answer is no.There are not any other provinces in Anatolia being 'Greek Trabzon' like.To model modern Turks you will need something from bronze age Anatolia and something Turkoman/Turkic associated.The Karakhanid refrences are not that bad.You might need something transcaucasus(depends individual).

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    I also think Greek_Dodocanese and ITA_Rome_Imperial (preferably once you remove outliers) is also needed for particularly for some Turks in West Turkey. I imagine a Greek-Macedonian population could also be useful for modelling some Turks too in more cosmopolitan centres, especially some from Istanbul and Izmir. If both Greek Cappadocian and Greek Dodocanese pop up, there is a chance also this could mean an ancestral Anatolian population similar to TUR_Isparta could play a role.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I also think Greek_Dodocanese and ITA_Rome_Imperial (preferably once you remove outliers) is also needed for particularly for some Turks in West Turkey. I imagine a Greek-Macedonian population could also be useful for modelling some Turks too in more cosmopolitan centres, especially some from Istanbul and Izmir. If both Greek Cappadocian and Greek Dodocanese pop up, there is a chance also this could mean an ancestral Anatolian population similar to TUR_Isparta could play a role.
    Αgree.Without being 100% sure but i think some of the western anatolian Turks might require something Slavic in their modelings.I am not sure if this has to do with the arrival of balkan Turks or something but i think even the native Turks there have something from the Slavs.

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    Anatolian Turks modeled using modern populations:

    Code:
    Target: Turkish_Southwest
    Distance: 0.8919% / 0.00891882 | R3P
    43.8	Kurdish
    39.4	Greek_Izmir
    16.8	Altaian
    
    Target: Turkish_South
    Distance: 0.7026% / 0.00702614 | R3P
    46.0	Greek_Central_Anatolia
    41.6	Turkmen_Uzbekistan
    12.4	Kumyk
    
    Target: Turkish_Rumeli
    Distance: 0.9927% / 0.00992722 | R3P
    56.8	Greek_Kos
    29.4	Slovakian
    13.8	Tubalar
    
    Target: Turkish_Northwest
    Distance: 0.7209% / 0.00720924 | R3P
    45.8	Turkmen
    35.8	Greek_Izmir
    18.4	Greek_Trabzon
    
    Target: Turkish_North
    Distance: 0.7124% / 0.00712428 | R3P
    40.4	Turkmen
    39.0	Greek_Trabzon
    20.6	Italian_Molise
    
    Target: Turkish_Kayseri
    Distance: 0.5428% / 0.00542830 | R3P
    72.6	Armenian
    14.2	Nogai
    13.2	Greek_Thessaly
    
    Target: Turkish_Istanbul
    Distance: 0.7960% / 0.00796033 | R3P
    67.8	Greek_Central_Anatolia
    22.6	Tatar_Lipka
    9.6	Jatt_Pathak
    
    Target: Turkish_East
    Distance: 0.8535% / 0.00853488 | R3P
    42.2	Iranian_Fars
    40.0	Greek_Central_Anatolia
    17.8	North_Ossetian
    
    Target: Turkish_Deliorman
    Distance: 0.6780% / 0.00677993 | R3P
    68.0	Moldovan
    16.2	Karaite_Egypt
    15.8	Turkmen
    
    Target: Turkish_Central
    Distance: 0.6008% / 0.00600824 | R3P
    49.2	Armenian
    30.6	Turkmen
    20.2	Italian_Apulia
    
    Target: Turkish_Balikesir
    Distance: 1.0348% / 0.01034784 | R3P
    42.6	Turkmen_Uzbekistan
    31.4	Greek_Cappadocia
    26.0	Greek_Thessaly
    
    Target: Turkish_Aydin
    Distance: 0.9249% / 0.00924870 | R3P
    50.2	Armenian
    27.6	Rumelia_East
    22.2	Kazakh
    
    Target: Turkish_Adana
    Distance: 0.9006% / 0.00900592 | R3P
    55.0	Kurdish
    36.8	Greek_Crete
    8.2	Khakass_Kachins
    [1] "distance%=2.9299"

    Ajeje Brazorf

    EEF,51.4
    BALTIC_BA,12.6
    GANJ_DAREH,10.8
    CHG,10.4
    MIDDLE_EAST,10
    ANE,2.4
    TAFORALT,1.8
    WHG,0.6

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  12. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajeje Brazorf View Post
    Anatolian Turks modeled using modern populations:

    Code:
    Target: Turkish_Northwest
    Distance: 0.7209% / 0.00720924 | R3P
    45.8	Turkmen
    35.8	Greek_Izmir
    18.4	Greek_Trabzon
    Where did you get the coordinates which you have you used, Davidski? My dad is from Western Turkey and my mum from the North, broadly Izmir and Trabzon, and this is the best fit I could manage, which isn't that great.

    Target: Liquid_scaled
    Distance: 1.7196% / 0.01719595
    34.0 Turkmen
    33.0 Greek_Izmir
    33.0 Greek_Trabzon
    Distance: 2.2682%
    38.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    18.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    8.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    7.4 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
    6.8 Levant_Natufian
    2.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
    99.5% Anatolian, 0.5% Sudanese (23&me)

  13. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Αgree.Without being 100% sure but i think some of the western anatolian Turks might require something Slavic in their modelings.I am not sure if this has to do with the arrival of balkan Turks or something but i think even the native Turks there have something from the Slavs.
    I suppose you can model modern Turks using any populations you like but lets look at the facts, the only route Greeks and Slavs had into Anatolia was through the sea, which puts them into the categories of invaders and colonizers; just look at the easy land routes the Anatolian land mass has with the Pontic Steppes, Caucasus, Levant, Iran and beyond.
    Distance: 2.2682%
    38.2 TUR_Barcin_N
    18.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
    17.8 GEO_CHG
    8.4 IRN_Ganj_Dareh_N
    7.4 CHN_Yellow_River_LN
    6.8 Levant_Natufian
    2.8 RUS_Devils_Gate_Cave_N
    99.5% Anatolian, 0.5% Sudanese (23&me)

  14. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
    I suppose you can model modern Turks using any populations you like but lets look at the facts, the only route Greeks and Slavs had into Anatolia was through the sea, which puts them into the categories of invaders and colonizers; just look at the easy land routes the Anatolian land mass has with the Pontic Steppes, Caucasus, Levant, Iran and beyond.
    Western Anatolian Turks have assilimated ' Greek'/'Anatolian Greek' people. This is why in my modelings some of them fit well with some balto-slavic drift.

  15. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
    I suppose you can model modern Turks using any populations you like but lets look at the facts, the only route Greeks and Slavs had into Anatolia was through the sea, which puts them into the categories of invaders and colonizers; just look at the easy land routes the Anatolian land mass has with the Pontic Steppes, Caucasus, Levant, Iran and beyond.
    I don't understand your logic. If you come via land (and not sea route) you are an not invader or colonizer? Things are not so simple especially if you use modern political categories for ancient human movements.

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