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Thread: Using Greek-related populations to model modern Turks: Feasibility?

  1. #11
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    Scotland England Australia Star of David Turkey Egypt
    I don't think Greeks or Turks deny that their culture is one which spread to Anatolia from outside and could well have assimilated descendants of Lydians and Hittites. What's interesting though is that both Central Anatolian Greeks (potentially Western-Anatolian Greeks) Dodocanese Islander Greeks and majority of Anatolian Turks (I want to add Turkish Jews to a lesser extent as well) can be modelled partially fine with Bronze Age Anatolian samples.

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     Johnny ola (02-07-2021)

  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Liquid View Post
    Where did you get the coordinates which you have you used, Davidski? My dad is from Western Turkey and my mum from the North, broadly Izmir and Trabzon, and this is the best fit I could manage, which isn't that great.

    Target: Liquid_scaled
    Distance: 1.7196% / 0.01719595
    34.0 Turkmen
    33.0 Greek_Izmir
    33.0 Greek_Trabzon
    I used modern averages. I can try to model for you if you PM me your coordinates.
    [1] "distance%=2.9299"

    Ajeje Brazorf

    EEF,51.4
    BALTIC_BA,12.6
    GANJ_DAREH,10.8
    CHG,10.4
    MIDDLE_EAST,10
    ANE,2.4
    TAFORALT,1.8
    WHG,0.6

  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I don't think Greeks or Turks deny that their culture is one which spread to Anatolia from outside and could well have assimilated descendants of Lydians and Hittites. What's interesting though is that both Central Anatolian Greeks (potentially Western-Anatolian Greeks) Dodocanese Islander Greeks and majority of Anatolian Turks (I want to add Turkish Jews to a lesser extent as well) can be modelled partially fine with Bronze Age Anatolian samples.
    Cypriots as well and Cretans. They are all of them more west Asian admixed.

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  6. #14
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    Scotland England Australia Star of David Turkey Egypt
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Cypriots as well and Cretans. They are all of them more west Asian admixed.
    Ofcourse! Bad of me to forget them along with possibly others.

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  8. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    Ofcourse! Bad of me to forget them along with possibly others.
    Don't worry. We need samples from hellenistic and Roman/Byzantine times to check when exactly they started becoming more 'Anatolian' like. Byzantine Greeks is another mystery especially what people used to inhabit in Costantinoupoli and the lands of the west Anatolian Coast.

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     Seabass (02-07-2021)

  10. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Turkish people if you remove their 'Turkoman' admixture they coming like Central Anatolian/Cappadocian Greeks.Trabzon people are more caucasus shifted and they represent better the natives of northeast anatolia (from Trabzon/Gumushane,Rize,Artvin).The only regions/provinces where Turkic admixture is limited to absent are EasternBlacksea(Not Giresun inclunding),Eastern Anatolia....where the genetics are more Armenian/Kurdish like(with exception Azeri like folks).The rest of Anatolia is pretty much the same.There is a Levant shift(not crazy amounts) as you go southern in the regions bordering with Syria.(Adana,Mersin,Hatay etc),but keep in mind there are Arabian related populations there.The highest 'Turkoman' admixture can be seen in the more western regions of Anatolia(balikesir etc).So,the answer is no.There are not any other provinces in Anatolia being 'Greek Trabzon' like.To model modern Turks you will need something from bronze age Anatolia and something Turkoman/Turkic associated.The Karakhanid refrences are not that bad.You might need something transcaucasus(depends individual).
    It depends on the region, Central Anatolian Greeks/Cappadocian Greeks are not good with Western part of Anatolia it needs Dodecanese like admixture with some central Anatolianlike. Pontic Greeks and Central Anatolian Greeks seem to be fine with modelling eastern half of the Black sea(west of Trabzon). For the Balkan Turks Bulgarian-Northern Macadonianlike population seem to be fine with modelling. NW Anatolia seem to have a bit more europeanlike shift, it is quite small though compared to other Anatolian Turks and Dodecanese and CA Greeks still ok. Natives there should have that shift maybe from Thrace since it is quite close in proximity.

    And Actually no there is no Levant Shift in Mersin or Adana and Arabs of these provinces are not natives but late comers in 19th century so no mixing with them, and also their genetics does not seem to show any sign of Levantine shift. Only province with native Arab related population amaong these 3 province was Hatay and even Hatay was not fully Arabic speakig. I will leave individuals k12b results of provinces below to give some idea. About Eastern Turks native parts of them rather Udilike in NE part of the country. For Elazıg and Malatya it needs a bit more iraniclike. For Gaziantep and Kilis something between Cappadocian Greek and Assyrian would be fine i guess.
    and than adding Turkic/Oghuz ancestry Turks brought, unfortunately we still do not have medieval Oghuz DNA, but still we can guess how it used to looklike roughly.

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...pbY/edit#gid=0

    [QUOTE=I also think Greek_Dodocanese and ITA_Rome_Imperial (preferably once you remove outliers) is also needed for particularly for some Turks in West Turkey. I imagine a Greek-Macedonian population could also be useful for modelling some Turks too in more cosmopolitan centres, especially some from Istanbul and Izmir. If both Greek Cappadocian and Greek Dodocanese pop up, there is a chance also this could mean an ancestral Anatolian population similar to TUR_Isparta could play a role.[/QUOTE]

    Why would anyone model Turks from cosmopolitan cities. And Why would Greek Macadonian would be usefull. First of all if you imply Balkan Turks their balkan part of admixture "mostly" come from Balkan Slavs not Greeks, like Bulgarian-Northern Macadonian. Though Macedonian Greek sample seem to be Bulgarianlike. For example now Salonika is in Greece but we have Turks from there more than %30 NE admixture in dodecad k12b fe, yet Greeks from Salonika seem to have it average of 25%. Balkan Turks native Balkan part should be Bulgarianlike rather than Greeklike.

    About Modelling Cosmopolitan Cities, Istanbul has the biggest population share from Black Sean Turks(i am one of them) and Central-East Anatolian Turks and then others etc. And most people come here after 1950s.Istanbul also has its own Native population anyway. So any individul should show diffenet genetic caharacteristics. Modelling cosmopolitan Cities where eveybody knows where they come from would not make sense at all and would not give any usefull outcome. Today Salonika and Katerini etc are full of Pontic Greeks do people model these cities with using Pontics Greeks there? I doubt so, because it does not make sense. West Turkey natives genetics' also a bit diffent than Balkan Turks, all Balkan Turks are awere of their ancestry as well, instead of calling them Turks in West Turkey you can call them simply Balkan Turks.
    Last edited by Cazu; 02-07-2021 at 02:32 PM.

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  12. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seabass View Post
    I also think Greek_Dodocanese and ITA_Rome_Imperial (preferably once you remove outliers) is also needed for particularly for some Turks in West Turkey. I imagine a Greek-Macedonian population could also be useful for modelling some Turks too in more cosmopolitan centres, especially some from Istanbul and Izmir. If both Greek Cappadocian and Greek Dodocanese pop up, there is a chance also this could mean an ancestral Anatolian population similar to TUR_Isparta could play a role.
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    Αgree.Without being 100% sure but i think some of the western anatolian Turks might require something Slavic in their modelings.I am not sure if this has to do with the arrival of balkan Turks or something but i think even the native Turks there have something from the Slavs.
    Southwest Anatolian and Northwest Anatolian averages on G25 are among the native Turks there not from Balkan admixed Turks or Balkan Turks. So if there is something slaviclike it should rather came from Pre-Turkic natives IMO. And i do not think it has to be Slavic.

  13. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cazu View Post
    Southwest Anatolian and Northwest Anatolian averages on G25 are among the native Turks there not from Balkan admixed Turks or Balkan Turks. So if there is something slaviclike it should rather came from Pre-Turkic natives IMO. And i do not think it has to be Slavic.
    As I mention above the western Anatolian Turks require something balkanic/Slavic in their modelings. It's true that they are not a pure Central Anatolian Greek Group with something central Asian(Turkoman like). They have something close to Greek islanders and Izmir Greeks and this is besides their bronze age Anatolian admixture. They need something 'steppish' with Eastern European shift. Norhtwest Turks including those from Ordu, Amasya, Sinope, Kastanomu etc are less Caucasus shifted compared to Northeast Anatolians from the eastern areas of blacksea.They also have more steppe admixture. People from Trabzon, Rize, Gumushane, Artvin etc usually lack steppe DNA.

  14. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny ola View Post
    As I mention above the western Anatolian Turks require something balkanic/Slavic in their modelings. It's true that they are not a pure Central Anatolian Greek Group with something central Asian(Turkoman like). They have something close to Greek islanders and Izmir Greeks and this is besides their bronze age Anatolian admixture. They need something 'steppish' with Eastern European shift. Norhtwest Turks including those from Ordu, Amasya, Sinope, Kastanomu etc are less Caucasus shifted compared to Northeast Anatolians from the eastern areas of blacksea.They also have more steppe admixture. People from Trabzon, Rize, Gumushane, Artvin etc usually lack steppe DNA.
    Those cities are not from West though, Turkics also bring Steppe admixture to Anatolia, it is just NW Anatolian pre-Turkics seem to have extra Steppe compared to rest of Anatolian pre-Turkics, fe the higher amonut of Steppe among Turks compered to Central Anatolian or Cappadocian Greeks in those areas because of their Turkic Ancestry, also the great difference between Giresun-Trabzon Turks due to Giresun Turks' Turkic Ancestry. But preTurkics' Steppe ancestry seem to increse with Sinop and west of it, closer to Tharace higher the pre-Turkic steppe ancestry.

  15. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cazu View Post
    Those cities are not from West though, Turkics also bring Steppe admixture to Anatolia, it is just NW Anatolian pre-Turkics seem to have extra Steppe compared to rest of Anatolian pre-Turkics, fe the higher amonut of Steppe among Turks compered to Central Anatolian or Cappadocian Greeks in those areas because of their Turkic Ancestry, also the great difference between Giresun-Trabzon Turks due to Giresun Turks' Turkic Ancestry. But preTurkics' Steppe ancestry seem to increse with Sinop and west of it, closer to Tharace higher the pre-Turkic steppe ancestry.
    Yes taking serious these R1b lineages there it seems Thracians and Maybe Phrygians left an impact.But even the western Pontus contains steppe.Witch means these lands were in contact with IE anatolian folks unlike eastern Pontus where the genetic make up seems more Caucasus shifted.


    A simple model for Turkish Northwest it would be this thought:


    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest9
    Distance: 2.6843% / 0.02684270
    60.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    19.8 KAZ_Karakhanid
    19.4 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest8
    Distance: 2.7063% / 0.02706340
    53.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    33.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
    13.2 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest7
    Distance: 2.4867% / 0.02486663
    60.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    21.2 KAZ_Karakhanid
    18.4 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest5
    Distance: 2.4340% / 0.02434046
    56.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    28.4 KAZ_Karakhanid
    15.2 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest4
    Distance: 2.2544% / 0.02254369
    60.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    21.0 KAZ_Karakhanid
    18.8 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest3
    Distance: 1.8770% / 0.01876970
    61.2 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    23.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
    15.2 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest2
    Distance: 1.8084% / 0.01808389
    57.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    21.6 KAZ_Karakhanid
    20.6 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest10
    Distance: 2.1800% / 0.02180011
    47.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    39.2 KAZ_Karakhanid
    13.2 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest1
    Distance: 2.2810% / 0.02281027
    63.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    20.2 KAZ_Karakhanid
    16.8 RUS_Catacomb



    If i use the Ottoman samples it is coming like this:



    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest9
    Distance: 2.6571% / 0.02657070
    58.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    22.8 TUR_Ottoman
    18.6 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest8
    Distance: 2.8862% / 0.02886202
    49.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    36.4 TUR_Ottoman
    14.6 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest7
    Distance: 2.5127% / 0.02512725
    50.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    35.2 TUR_Ottoman
    14.4 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest5
    Distance: 2.2733% / 0.02273336
    52.8 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    33.6 TUR_Ottoman
    13.6 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest4
    Distance: 1.7687% / 0.01768710
    46.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    40.0 TUR_Ottoman
    13.4 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest3
    Distance: 1.7274% / 0.01727421
    53.0 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    34.0 TUR_Ottoman
    13.0 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest2
    Distance: 1.7926% / 0.01792576
    52.4 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    29.6 TUR_Ottoman
    18.0 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest10
    Distance: 1.9245% / 0.01924547
    46.2 TUR_Ottoman
    40.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    13.2 RUS_Catacomb

    Target: Turkish_Northwest:Turkish_Northwest1
    Distance: 2.2396% / 0.02239605
    52.6 TUR_Kaman-Kalehoyuk_MLBA
    33.0 TUR_Ottoman
    14.4 RUS_Catacomb

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