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Thread: Automated qpGraph: possibilities for the consideration of technically savvy Users?

  1. #161
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    Well there's an ANE-proper edge into IronGates as well, I think it was 14 or 15% which sounds right. The problem is that's not enough to cover how much East Eurasian affinity IronGates has.
    Chronologically speaking the formation of WHG seems like...
    1) Gravettian/Goyet mix
    2 or 3) proto-ANE/direct Eastern ancestry like that found in ANE/Iran_N
    2 or 3) Dzudzuana mixtuure?
    4) ANE-proper/AG3-like ancestry.
    I wonder if WHG formed on the Western steppe?
    Last edited by Kale; 07-30-2021 at 04:01 AM.
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    Iran-N has an admixture of ANE from R2

  3. #163
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    Right, showing up as 12-13% on the graphs. Wonder what lineages would be associated with the ANE that CHG has?
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    It's hard to say. If you look at your 4 points, it is easiest with points 1 and 4. 1 this is the European population of the LGM times. 4 this is the Iron Gate R1b-V2219, which came after 15,000 BC. But paragraphs 2 and 3 are not clear. Either there was an unknown migration of Iran-N with a fraction of ANE, and then there was a migration of Dzudzuana CHG, or Dzudzuana was CHG already mixed with ANE

    And if point 2 is the Villabruna R1b-L754*, going from Siberia through Iran?

    Then Dzudzuana CHG is point 3 . Although it may be the other way around, first Dzudzuana, and R1b-L754* came to Europe later

    Although R1b-L754* Villabruna and R1b-V2219 Iron Gate may be from the same population, then Villabruna belongs to your point 4.
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 07-30-2021 at 05:51 AM.

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  6. #165
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    FWIW a paper that deals with the archeology of north east Europe in the upper paleolithic. Interesting the connection withthe uluzzian and proto aurignacian.

    https://www.academia.edu/50085907/On...eolithic_MIS3_

    quote

    Thus, age, distinctive features of stone and bone assemblage and the types of personalornaments unambiguously allow to relate Zaozer’e to the beginning of the Upper Palaeolithic.The complex of the basic characteristics of the site, including spatial organization (for detailssee Svendsen et al. 2010: g.6) and the main features of the site’s assemblage, completely fit within the AMH behavioral “package”. The industry of Zaozer’e has certain similarityto assemblages of the contemporaneous sites of the Kostenki group (Kostenki XVII, layerII and Kostenki XIV, layers IVb-w), but also yielded some implements resembling elementsof the Uluzzian (lunates) and Protoaurignacien (straight bladelets) assemblages of Southernand Southwestern Europe (Moroni et al., 2013; Dinnis et al., 2019). Thus, in my opinion, he materials of Zaozer’e support suggestions of a rapid spreading of the Upper Palaeolithic industries and accordingly of modern humans across the territory of the plain, at least, up to58 ° N, during the chronological interval of 41-38 cal kyr (Hoffecker, 2011).

    A step further to the thesis of ANE and Yana as european upper paleolithic genetically derived, that is to say that these people likely ventured more and more to the east reaching north east Siberia (Yana)

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  8. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by etrusco View Post
    FWIW a paper that deals with the archeology of north east Europe in the upper paleolithic. Interesting the connection withthe uluzzian and proto aurignacian.

    https://www.academia.edu/50085907/On...eolithic_MIS3_

    quote

    Thus, age, distinctive features of stone and bone assemblage and the types of personalornaments unambiguously allow to relate Zaozer’e to the beginning of the Upper Palaeolithic.The complex of the basic characteristics of the site, including spatial organization (for detailssee Svendsen et al. 2010: g.6) and the main features of the site’s assemblage, completely fit within the AMH behavioral “package”. The industry of Zaozer’e has certain similarityto assemblages of the contemporaneous sites of the Kostenki group (Kostenki XVII, layerII and Kostenki XIV, layers IVb-w), but also yielded some implements resembling elementsof the Uluzzian (lunates) and Protoaurignacien (straight bladelets) assemblages of Southernand Southwestern Europe (Moroni et al., 2013; Dinnis et al., 2019). Thus, in my opinion, he materials of Zaozer’e support suggestions of a rapid spreading of the Upper Palaeolithic industries and accordingly of modern humans across the territory of the plain, at least, up to58 ° N, during the chronological interval of 41-38 cal kyr (Hoffecker, 2011).

    A step further to the thesis of ANE and Yana as european upper paleolithic genetically derived, that is to say that these people likely ventured more and more to the east reaching north east Siberia (Yana)
    «The article describes the history of the initial settlement of the north of the Ural region and considers its features in various periods of the Paleolithic era. In the Middle Paleolithic (about 80 thousand years ago) and the early Upper Paleolithic (36-28 thousand years ago), the southern and central regions of the Eastern Urals served as the initial area of settlementThe European plain. In the Late Paleolithic (19-12. 5 thousand years ago), a permanent population appeared in the Ural region, a local Ural Late Paleolithic culture was formed, genetically related to the Upper Paleolithic small-plate industries of the south of Western Siberia. In the final Paleolithic (12.5-9.5 thousand years ago) , the Ural historical and cultural region was formed.» "Thus, in the period preceding the LGM, a population of close Kostenki migrates to Siberia, where they apparently meet with a "pure" ANE, a mixed population of Yana is formed, which after the LGM returns first to the Urals, and then to Europe.

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  10. #167
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    Why did they go to Siberia? Perhaps that's why:
    https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/ice-...ures-1.5701736
    785F4D6F-21B6-4313-AB56-4809A8B8F01F.jpeg

    Theoretically, it can be a subclades C1b-B65 and C1a-M8
    Last edited by VladimirTaraskin; 08-10-2021 at 06:57 PM.

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    Hmmm... how about this as a phylogeny for ANE?
    1) proto-ANE
    2) Yana heads East picks up some Tianyuan
    3) ANE remaining further West develops into proto-MA1
    4) proto-MA1 migrates south into Central Asia picking up a substantial amount of additional Eastern ancestry
    5) ACE spreads Northeast picking up paleosiberian ancestry before heading to Americas and Northwest into Europe after the LGM.

     

    digraph G {
    size = "7.5,10";
    Root -> MbutiDG [ label = "70" ];
    Root -> X [ label = "70" ];
    X -> AEA [ label = "4" ];
    AEA -> MotaSG [ label = "135" ];
    AEA -> ANA [ label = "8" ];
    ANA -> B [ label = "17" ];
    B -> B1 [ label = "4" ];
    B -> C [ label = "3" ];
    ZK -> ZlatyKunSG [ label = "138" ];
    C -> E0 [ label = "3" ];
    E0 -> E1 [ label = "0" ];
    E0 -> Ust_IshimDG [ label = "135" ];
    E1 -> E2 [ label = "1" ];
    E2 -> E3 [ label = "3" ];
    BK -> BachoKiro_IUP [ label = "140" ];
    E3 -> pTY1 [ label = "5" ];
    pTY1 -> pTY2 [ label = "65" ];
    pTY2 -> Tianyuan_AR33K [ label = "61" ];
    E3 -> E4 [ label = "3" ];
    E4 -> E5 [ label = "12" ];
    E5 -> E5w [ label = "4" ];
    E6 -> E7 [ label = "0" ];
    E7 -> Japan_Jomon [ label = "124" ];
    E7 -> E8 [ label = "9" ];
    E8 -> Mongolia_N_East [ label = "117" ];
    E4 -> OngeDG [ label = "128" ];
    E1 -> W0 [ label = "9" ];
    W0 -> W1 [ label = "2" ];
    W3 -> W6 [ label = "6" ];
    W6 -> Kostenki14 [ label = "125" ];
    W6 -> W7 [ label = "6" ];
    W7 -> SunghirSG [ label = "120" ];
    W1 -> GOY [ label = "1" ];
    GOY -> GOY2 [ label = "11" ];
    GOY -> GOY1 [ label = "6" ];
    GOY1 -> GoyetQ116_1 [ label = "120" ];
    GRV -> GRV2 [ label = "8" ];
    GRV2 -> Gravettian [ label = "115" ];
    W0 -> W5 [ label = "0" ];
    ANE0 -> ANE1 [ label = "0" ];
    pYAN -> Yana_UPSG [ label = "131" ];
    ANE1 -> ANE2 [ label = "19" ];
    ANE2 -> MA1SG [ label = "112" ];
    ACE1 -> ACE2 [ label = "2" ];
    ACE2 -> ACE3 [ label = "7" ];
    IBM2 -> Taforalt [ label = "148" ];
    B1 -> B2 [ label = "9" ];
    NE1 -> NE2 [ label = "0" ];
    NE2 -> NE3 [ label = "14" ];
    INF -> Iran_GanjDareh_N [ label = "129" ];
    WHG0 -> WHG1 [ label = "24" ];
    WHG3 -> IronGates_Meso1 [ label = "126" ];
    DZU1 -> DZU2 [ label = "2" ];
    DZU2 -> AHG [ label = "4" ];
    AHG -> Anatolia_Epipaleolithic [ label = "127" ];
    NAM -> Peru_Laramate_900BP [ label = "125" ];
    pCHG -> CHGSG [ label = "133" ];
    B1 -> ZK [ style=dotted, label = "46%" ];
    E2 -> BK [ style=dotted, label = "95%" ];
    E5 -> E6 [ style=dotted, label = "65%" ];
    W1 -> W3 [ style=dotted, label = "87%" ];
    GOY2 -> GRV [ style=dotted, label = "47%" ];
    W5 -> ANE0 [ style=dotted, label = "88%" ];
    ANE1 -> pYAN [ style=dotted, label = "98%" ];
    ANE2 -> ACE1 [ style=dotted, label = "60%" ];
    AHG -> IBM1 [ style=dotted, label = "69%" ];
    IBM1 -> IBM2 [ style=dotted, label = "48%" ];
    ACE2 -> NE1 [ style=dotted, label = "35%" ];
    NE3 -> INF [ style=dotted, label = "72%" ];
    GRV2 -> WHG0 [ style=dotted, label = "57%" ];
    WHG1 -> WHG2 [ style=dotted, label = "76%" ];
    WHG2 -> WHG3 [ style=dotted, label = "80%" ];
    NE2 -> DZU1 [ style=dotted, label = "58%" ];
    E8 -> NAM [ style=dotted, label = "51%" ];
    NE3 -> pCHG [ style=dotted, label = "47%" ];
    E1 -> ZK [ style=dotted, label = "54%" ];
    X -> BK [ style=dotted, label = "5%" ];
    pTY1 -> E6 [ style=dotted, label = "35%" ];
    B2 -> W3 [ style=dotted, label = "13%" ];
    W7 -> GRV [ style=dotted, label = "53%" ];
    E5w -> ANE0 [ style=dotted, label = "12%" ];
    pTY2 -> pYAN [ style=dotted, label = "2%" ];
    E5w -> ACE1 [ style=dotted, label = "40%" ];
    GOY2 -> IBM1 [ style=dotted, label = "31%" ];
    ANA -> IBM2 [ style=dotted, label = "52%" ];
    B2 -> NE1 [ style=dotted, label = "65%" ];
    DZU2 -> INF [ style=dotted, label = "28%" ];
    GOY1 -> WHG0 [ style=dotted, label = "43%" ];
    ACE3 -> WHG2 [ style=dotted, label = "24%" ];
    NE2 -> WHG3 [ style=dotted, label = "20%" ];
    WHG1 -> DZU1 [ style=dotted, label = "42%" ];
    ACE3 -> NAM [ style=dotted, label = "49%" ];
    DZU2 -> pCHG [ style=dotted, label = "53%" ];
    }


    I'll have to see how EHG behaves in this scenario. It'd be cool if it works but I suspect it won't. Karelia_HG for example might end up being 70% ACE, but that leaves very little room to squeeze in the necessary WHG and probably Dzudzuana ancestry.
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  14. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kale View Post
    Hmmm... how about this as a phylogeny for ANE?
    1) proto-ANE
    2) Yana heads East picks up some Tianyuan
    3) ANE remaining further West develops into proto-MA1
    4) proto-MA1 migrates south into Central Asia picking up a substantial amount of additional Eastern ancestry
    5) ACE spreads Northeast picking up paleosiberian ancestry before heading to Americas and Northwest into Europe after the LGM.

     

    digraph G {
    size = "7.5,10";
    Root -> MbutiDG [ label = "70" ];
    Root -> X [ label = "70" ];
    X -> AEA [ label = "4" ];
    AEA -> MotaSG [ label = "135" ];
    AEA -> ANA [ label = "8" ];
    ANA -> B [ label = "17" ];
    B -> B1 [ label = "4" ];
    B -> C [ label = "3" ];
    ZK -> ZlatyKunSG [ label = "138" ];
    C -> E0 [ label = "3" ];
    E0 -> E1 [ label = "0" ];
    E0 -> Ust_IshimDG [ label = "135" ];
    E1 -> E2 [ label = "1" ];
    E2 -> E3 [ label = "3" ];
    BK -> BachoKiro_IUP [ label = "140" ];
    E3 -> pTY1 [ label = "5" ];
    pTY1 -> pTY2 [ label = "65" ];
    pTY2 -> Tianyuan_AR33K [ label = "61" ];
    E3 -> E4 [ label = "3" ];
    E4 -> E5 [ label = "12" ];
    E5 -> E5w [ label = "4" ];
    E6 -> E7 [ label = "0" ];
    E7 -> Japan_Jomon [ label = "124" ];
    E7 -> E8 [ label = "9" ];
    E8 -> Mongolia_N_East [ label = "117" ];
    E4 -> OngeDG [ label = "128" ];
    E1 -> W0 [ label = "9" ];
    W0 -> W1 [ label = "2" ];
    W3 -> W6 [ label = "6" ];
    W6 -> Kostenki14 [ label = "125" ];
    W6 -> W7 [ label = "6" ];
    W7 -> SunghirSG [ label = "120" ];
    W1 -> GOY [ label = "1" ];
    GOY -> GOY2 [ label = "11" ];
    GOY -> GOY1 [ label = "6" ];
    GOY1 -> GoyetQ116_1 [ label = "120" ];
    GRV -> GRV2 [ label = "8" ];
    GRV2 -> Gravettian [ label = "115" ];
    W0 -> W5 [ label = "0" ];
    ANE0 -> ANE1 [ label = "0" ];
    pYAN -> Yana_UPSG [ label = "131" ];
    ANE1 -> ANE2 [ label = "19" ];
    ANE2 -> MA1SG [ label = "112" ];
    ACE1 -> ACE2 [ label = "2" ];
    ACE2 -> ACE3 [ label = "7" ];
    IBM2 -> Taforalt [ label = "148" ];
    B1 -> B2 [ label = "9" ];
    NE1 -> NE2 [ label = "0" ];
    NE2 -> NE3 [ label = "14" ];
    INF -> Iran_GanjDareh_N [ label = "129" ];
    WHG0 -> WHG1 [ label = "24" ];
    WHG3 -> IronGates_Meso1 [ label = "126" ];
    DZU1 -> DZU2 [ label = "2" ];
    DZU2 -> AHG [ label = "4" ];
    AHG -> Anatolia_Epipaleolithic [ label = "127" ];
    NAM -> Peru_Laramate_900BP [ label = "125" ];
    pCHG -> CHGSG [ label = "133" ];
    B1 -> ZK [ style=dotted, label = "46%" ];
    E2 -> BK [ style=dotted, label = "95%" ];
    E5 -> E6 [ style=dotted, label = "65%" ];
    W1 -> W3 [ style=dotted, label = "87%" ];
    GOY2 -> GRV [ style=dotted, label = "47%" ];
    W5 -> ANE0 [ style=dotted, label = "88%" ];
    ANE1 -> pYAN [ style=dotted, label = "98%" ];
    ANE2 -> ACE1 [ style=dotted, label = "60%" ];
    AHG -> IBM1 [ style=dotted, label = "69%" ];
    IBM1 -> IBM2 [ style=dotted, label = "48%" ];
    ACE2 -> NE1 [ style=dotted, label = "35%" ];
    NE3 -> INF [ style=dotted, label = "72%" ];
    GRV2 -> WHG0 [ style=dotted, label = "57%" ];
    WHG1 -> WHG2 [ style=dotted, label = "76%" ];
    WHG2 -> WHG3 [ style=dotted, label = "80%" ];
    NE2 -> DZU1 [ style=dotted, label = "58%" ];
    E8 -> NAM [ style=dotted, label = "51%" ];
    NE3 -> pCHG [ style=dotted, label = "47%" ];
    E1 -> ZK [ style=dotted, label = "54%" ];
    X -> BK [ style=dotted, label = "5%" ];
    pTY1 -> E6 [ style=dotted, label = "35%" ];
    B2 -> W3 [ style=dotted, label = "13%" ];
    W7 -> GRV [ style=dotted, label = "53%" ];
    E5w -> ANE0 [ style=dotted, label = "12%" ];
    pTY2 -> pYAN [ style=dotted, label = "2%" ];
    E5w -> ACE1 [ style=dotted, label = "40%" ];
    GOY2 -> IBM1 [ style=dotted, label = "31%" ];
    ANA -> IBM2 [ style=dotted, label = "52%" ];
    B2 -> NE1 [ style=dotted, label = "65%" ];
    DZU2 -> INF [ style=dotted, label = "28%" ];
    GOY1 -> WHG0 [ style=dotted, label = "43%" ];
    ACE3 -> WHG2 [ style=dotted, label = "24%" ];
    NE2 -> WHG3 [ style=dotted, label = "20%" ];
    WHG1 -> DZU1 [ style=dotted, label = "42%" ];
    ACE3 -> NAM [ style=dotted, label = "49%" ];
    DZU2 -> pCHG [ style=dotted, label = "53%" ];
    }


    I'll have to see how EHG behaves in this scenario. It'd be cool if it works but I suspect it won't. Karelia_HG for example might end up being 70% ACE, but that leaves very little room to squeeze in the necessary WHG and probably Dzudzuana ancestry.
    Yes, but this scheme needs to be combined into a logical scheme with the ancient Y-DNA. All of the above clearly refers to K2b. If paragraphs 3-5 can be called the period of the split of QR into R and Q, then paragraphs 1 and 2 are clearly not embedded in the phylogeny of haplogroup K2b. Maybe what Yana and Tianyuan have in common is their common heritage from the K2b haplogroup ?

  15. #170
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    Yes indeed. So I should say...
    0) Goyet-like pop mixes with an Onge-like pop (that also contributes to East Asians) to form proto-ANE. That resolves why Andaman_100BP.SG has y-hg P.

    Also surprisingly the addition of Karelia_HG didn't destroy the above graph. Some small issues but I'm thinking tweaks rather than a reworking.
    Last edited by Kale; 08-11-2021 at 03:28 AM.
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