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Thread: Central French results

  1. #1
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    Central French results

    Ancestors are from Guéret (Marche: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marche_(province) ) and Montluçon (Auvergne : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auvergne ), according his genealogy.



    V3

    1 North_Atlantic 42.09
    2 West_Med 23.32
    3 Baltic 19.2
    4 East_Med 8.22
    5 West_Asian 5.06
    6 East_Asian 0.74
    7 Red_Sea 0.56
    8 Northeast_African 0.44
    9 Oceanian 0.36

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 French 4.89
    2 South_Dutch 7.94
    3 Spanish_Cataluna 8.17
    4 West_German 8.55
    5 Southwest_French 8.99
    6 Spanish_Galicia 9.54
    7 Spanish_Cantabria 9.56
    8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.64
    9 Portuguese 10.01
    10 Spanish_Valencia 10.84
    11 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 11.05
    12 Spanish_Murcia 11.36
    13 Spanish_Extremadura 11.52
    14 Southeast_English 12.14
    15 Spanish_Aragon 12.45
    16 Southwest_English 12.61
    17 Spanish_Andalucia 12.61
    18 Austrian 13.24
    19 Orcadian 14.33
    20 East_German 14.75

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 70.6% North_Dutch + 29.4% Sardinian @ 1.4
    2 67.7% Norwegian + 32.3% Sardinian @ 1.72
    3 53.3% Hungarian + 46.7% French_Basque @ 1.84
    4 70.2% Danish + 29.8% Sardinian @ 1.85
    5 51.3% West_German + 48.7% Southwest_French @ 2.15
    6 72.2% Orcadian + 27.8% Sardinian @ 2.42
    7 59.9% Austrian + 40.1% French_Basque @ 2.56
    8 54.4% Spanish_Aragon + 45.6% East_German @ 2.6
    9 53.4% South_Dutch + 46.6% Southwest_French @ 2.6
    10 71% Irish + 29% Sardinian @ 2.65
    11 71.2% North_German + 28.8% Sardinian @ 2.67
    12 75.6% Southeast_English + 24.4% Sardinian @ 2.68
    13 60.2% Southwest_French + 39.8% Austrian @ 2.74
    14 83.1% South_Dutch + 16.9% Sardinian @ 2.74
    15 63.5% Southwest_French + 36.5% North_German @ 2.9
    16 61.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 38.6% East_German @ 2.9
    17 51.6% Spanish_Aragon + 48.4% Austrian @ 2.91
    18 58.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 41.3% Austrian @ 2.92
    19 53.1% West_German + 46.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.04
    20 55.3% South_Dutch + 44.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.08



    1 Atlantic 30.97
    2 North_Sea 22.98
    3 West_Med 18.27
    4 Eastern_Euro 8.52
    5 Baltic 8.52
    6 East_Med 5.97
    7 West_Asian 3.56
    8 Red_Sea 0.53
    9 Northeast_African 0.27
    10 Southeast_Asian 0.24
    11 Oceanian 0.19

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 Spanish_Cataluna 6.04
    2 French 7.35
    3 Southwest_French 7.59
    4 Spanish_Cantabria 7.7
    5 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 7.77
    6 Portuguese 8.59
    7 Spanish_Valencia 8.76
    8 Spanish_Murcia 8.85
    9 Spanish_Galicia 8.97
    10 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 9.1
    11 Spanish_Extremadura 9.15
    12 South_Dutch 9.61
    13 Spanish_Aragon 9.71
    14 Spanish_Andalucia 10.64
    15 Southwest_English 12.91
    16 North_Italian 13.26
    17 West_German 14.01
    18 Southeast_English 14.12
    19 Austrian 14.75
    20 East_German 14.81

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 56.3% Southwest_French + 43.7% South_Dutch @ 2.18
    2 68% Southwest_French + 32% North_German @ 2.69
    3 70.2% Southwest_French + 29.8% Danish @ 2.69
    4 66.1% Southwest_French + 33.9% West_German @ 2.92
    5 67.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 32.1% North_German @ 2.97
    6 70.1% Spanish_Aragon + 29.9% North_Swedish @ 2.99
    7 75.6% Southwest_French + 24.4% North_Swedish @ 2.99
    8 74.1% Southwest_French + 25.9% Norwegian @ 2.99
    9 56.3% Spanish_Cantabria + 43.7% South_Dutch @ 3.01
    10 71% Southwest_French + 29% North_Dutch @ 3.03
    11 50.3% South_Dutch + 49.7% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.07
    12 61.1% Spanish_Aragon + 38.9% East_German @ 3.07
    13 66.5% Southwest_French + 33.5% Southeast_English @ 3.09
    14 75.1% Southwest_French + 24.9% Swedish @ 3.13
    15 71.7% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha + 28.3% North_Swedish @ 3.15
    16 75.5% Southwest_French + 24.5% West_Norwegian @ 3.16
    17 64.5% Southwest_French + 35.5% Southwest_English @ 3.2
    18 52.6% Spanish_Valencia + 47.4% South_Dutch @ 3.24
    19 75.8% Spanish_Cantabria + 24.2% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.24
    20 75.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 24.3% North_Swedish @ 3.32



    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian -
    Armenian 0.31 Pct
    Basque 5.47 Pct
    Central_African -
    Central_Euro 5.20 Pct
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan 2.02 Pct
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro 3.75 Pct
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro 1.23 Pct
    Fennoscandian 8.60 Pct
    French 5.15 Pct
    Iberian 19.38 Pct
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 17.15 Pct
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African 0.74 Pct
    North_Atlantic 10.57 Pct
    North_Caucasian 1.40 Pct
    North_Sea 11.10 Pct
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy -
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural 0.95 Pct
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med 6.97 Pct



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  3. #2
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    Interesting, thanks. I have not seen many other central France results. My maternal grandma was from just north of your locations in Centre Val de Loire. .

    K13
    Eurogenes K13 Oracle results:
    K13 Oracle ref data revised 21 Nov 2013

    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 44.76
    2 West_Med 23.99
    3 Baltic 17.3
    4 East_Med 5.67
    5 West_Asian 4.11
    6 Northeast_African 1.57
    7 East_Asian 0.84
    8 Red_Sea 0.74
    9 Siberian 0.62
    10 South_Asian 0.4

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 French 6.63
    2 Southwest_French 8.24
    3 Spanish_Cataluna 8.76
    4 Spanish_Cantabria 8.96
    5 South_Dutch 9.12
    6 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 9.74
    7 Spanish_Galicia 10.1
    8 West_German 10.34
    9 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 10.75
    10 Portuguese 10.89
    11 Spanish_Valencia 11.37
    12 Spanish_Aragon 11.49
    13 Southwest_English 11.51
    14 Spanish_Murcia 11.64
    15 Southeast_English 11.85
    16 Spanish_Extremadura 12.1
    17 Spanish_Andalucia 12.84
    18 Orcadian 13.77
    19 Irish 14.46
    20 West_Scottish 14.53

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 51.1% Austrian + 48.9% French_Basque @ 2.13
    2 76.8% Southwest_English + 23.2% Sardinian @ 2.31
    3 54.9% French_Basque + 45.1% Hungarian @ 2.48
    4 64.5% Southwest_French + 35.5% Irish @ 2.5
    5 72.3% West_Scottish + 27.7% Sardinian @ 2.51
    6 66% Southwest_French + 34% North_Dutch @ 2.6
    7 66.5% Southwest_French + 33.5% Danish @ 2.6
    8 72.4% Irish + 27.6% Sardinian @ 2.6
    9 63.4% Southwest_French + 36.6% Orcadian @ 2.6
    10 59% Southwest_French + 41% Southwest_English @ 2.68
    11 69.1% Southwest_French + 30.9% Norwegian @ 2.68
    12 64.7% Southwest_French + 35.3% West_Scottish @ 2.73
    13 66.6% Southwest_French + 33.4% North_German @ 2.74
    14 67.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 32.8% Norwegian @ 2.82
    15 50.8% French_Basque + 49.2% East_German @ 2.85
    16 62.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 37.4% Irish @ 2.88
    17 61.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 38.6% Orcadian @ 2.88
    18 62.3% West_German + 37.7% French_Basque @ 2.88
    19 59.8% Southwest_French + 40.2% Southeast_English @ 2.89
    20 70.8% Southwest_French + 29.2% Swedish @ 2.93

    Eurogenes EUtest V2 K15 Oracle results:


    Admix Results (sorted):

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Sea 29.95
    2 Atlantic 27.46
    3 West_Med 19.86
    4 Eastern_Euro 7.71
    5 Baltic 6.78
    6 East_Med 2.62
    7 West_Asian 2.58
    8 Northeast_African 1.71
    9 Southeast_Asian 0.7
    10 Red_Sea 0.58
    11 Siberian 0.04
    12 South_Asian 0.02

    Single Population Sharing:

    # Population (source) Distance
    1 French 6.73
    2 South_Dutch 8.97
    3 Southwest_English 9.75
    4 Spanish_Galicia 9.76
    5 Spanish_Cataluna 10.13
    6 Portuguese 10.81
    7 West_German 11.2
    8 Spanish_Cantabria 11.31
    9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.48
    10 Southeast_English 11.82
    11 Spanish_Extremadura 12.51
    12 Southwest_French 12.72
    13 Spanish_Murcia 12.76
    14 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 13.81
    15 Irish 13.92
    16 Spanish_Valencia 14.21
    17 West_Scottish 14.28
    18 Spanish_Aragon 14.4
    19 North_German 14.42
    20 Orcadian 14.45

    Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

    # Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
    1 80% Southwest_English + 20% Sardinian @ 3.55
    2 72.2% Orcadian + 27.8% Sardinian @ 3.71
    3 72.7% West_Scottish + 27.3% Sardinian @ 4.2
    4 62% Spanish_Cantabria + 38% West_Norwegian @ 4.21
    5 76.8% Southeast_English + 23.2% Sardinian @ 4.43
    6 60.9% Spanish_Cantabria + 39.1% Norwegian @ 4.55
    7 73.4% Irish + 26.6% Sardinian @ 4.69
    8 54.7% Southwest_English + 45.3% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.73
    9 50% Spanish_Galicia + 50% Southwest_English @ 4.95
    10 57.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 42.8% Orcadian @ 5.02
    11 72.6% North_Dutch + 27.4% Sardinian @ 5.07
    12 63.3% Spanish_Cantabria + 36.7% Swedish @ 5.12
    13 53.4% Southwest_English + 46.6% Portuguese @ 5.12
    14 72.3% Danish + 27.7% Sardinian @ 5.15
    15 57.6% Spanish_Cantabria + 42.4% North_Dutch @ 5.26
    16 50.3% West_German + 49.7% Spanish_Cantabria @ 5.44
    17 62.3% Spanish_Galicia + 37.7% Orcadian @ 5.44
    18 59.4% Southwest_French + 40.6% West_Norwegian @ 5.53
    19 58.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 41.9% Danish @ 5.55
    20 68.3% West_Norwegian + 31.7% Sardinian @ 5.57

    K36
    Population
    Amerindian -
    Arabian -
    Armenian -
    Basque 0.60 Pct
    Central_African 0.74 Pct
    Central_Euro 10.27 Pct
    East_African -
    East_Asian -
    East_Balkan -
    East_Central_Asian -
    East_Central_Euro -
    East_Med -
    Eastern_Euro 2.24 Pct
    Fennoscandian 3.25 Pct
    French 10.30 Pct
    Iberian 29.15 Pct
    Indo-Chinese -
    Italian 15.98 Pct
    Malayan -
    Near_Eastern -
    North_African 0.58 Pct
    North_Atlantic 9.36 Pct
    North_Caucasian -
    North_Sea 11.68 Pct
    Northeast_African -
    Oceanian -
    Omotic -
    Pygmy 0.08 Pct
    Siberian -
    South_Asian -
    South_Central_Asian -
    South_Chinese -
    Volga-Ural 0.33 Pct
    West_African -
    West_Caucasian -
    West_Med 5.39 Pct
    Maternal grandfather: born in Leningrad Oblast, Russia (1928)
    Maternal grandmother: born in Centre-Val de Loire, France (1927) - earliest documented ancestor (1770) Indre, France
    Paternal grandmother: born in the US - earliest documented ancestors (c. 1800) Mecklenburg-Vorpommern and Lower Saxony
    Paternal grandfather: born in the US - paternal grandparents born in Danzig (c. 1854), maternal grandparents born in Kolding, Denmark 1875, maternal great grandma born in Lindberg, Sweden 1849

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  5. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genos Historia View Post
    There are published French samples like him in G25 PCA from Occtine province in Southwest France. They have the same ancestral makeup as him, and there are definitely many people in France like this.

    But there are few of them. He is unique in being an intermediate between Basque and Northern Europe.

    Iron age samples from Spain and France form a cline which overlaps where those Occtine samples and this guy probably locate. But few in modern France and Spain form this cline likely due to Roman Italian admixture in both countries. (I made a video about this).

    .
    Here, he's close to my father (picard from Northern France), my friend from Loire-Ardèche, my other friend from Berry (central france) ; All are closer to each other than to other populations (apart from outliers, here they are individuals without non-French foreign ancestry), you can see the PCA here (Red >>> Loire-Ardèche ; Black >>> Berry ; Green >>> Haut-de-France), so he's not between Basque and Northern French, but just in the French cluster. I have a lot of purely French samples (with genealogy) showing a great proximity, even with people coming from geographically distant areas (Haut-de-France and Ardèche for example).



    The "Italian" (italien people doesn't exist ; A individual from Abruzzo is more close to a Ashkenazi that a Venetian, for example) Roman contribution means absolutely nothing from a genetic point of view: the Imperial Romans were different from the Republicans, who were themselves different from the previous populations. I don't know if you talk about Pre-Imperial Roman or other thing. Do you talk about Republican "roman"? Estrucan? Latin from the Latium? I don't know.


    You seem not to have read the recent genetic studies on the French population clearly showing a homogeneity in the French population and a continuity between the populations of the Iron Age and the current French populations (if we put aside the Western Breton and the Basques (purely Basques are a minority in France).


    Read >>> "Contributions of archaeogenetics to the study of groups from Late Iron Age in France : a multi-scale approach"
    https://tel.archives-ouvertes.fr/tel-03092247/document

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  7. #4
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    PS: I have a lot of samples (with genealogy) of people (with their Global 25) from Haute-de-France (Picardy people, not Flemish people) who clust like my father and who are closer to my friend from Ardèche Loire than of the English and other people; I have also samples from Auvergnats people who are closer to my samples from Haut de France than to Basques or Catalans or any other population.

    This confirms recent genetic studies about French population, whether people like it or not.

  8. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genos Historia View Post
    Interesting. He is intermediate between Basque-like Southern French and Northern French.

    Which fit his geographic origin in France.

    Most Southern French are not Basque-like however. Most are Spanish-like in that they pull towards Italy (probably due to Roman Italian admixture).
    And no it's wrong, a lot of samples of French people from the South (Western and Eastern) that I have clust closer to other French people (from Central or North) than non-basque Spaniards, you tell things that are false and which are dismantled by recent genetic studies.

    I wouldn't watch your video on France if you say exactly the same thing, because genetic studies don't prove you right: even in the South of France, the non-Basque part has a strong “central French like” contribution.

    The theory of "Southern France" (i don't know if you talk about the Non-basque area of SouthWestern France) closer to the Spaniards than to other French people has long been debunked.

    I even have samples from Tarn (purely from Tarn, in the South West of France, the non-Basque part) which clust closer to my Haut-de-France French (non-Flemish I specify) and Central French samples than of the Spaniards (non-Basque).

    I do not understand what your theory is but it does not stick to the reality of the samples I have available and which are closer to each other than to other non-French populations (I would expose a lot of them because I have).
    Last edited by Olymp; 01-03-2021 at 08:50 PM.

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  10. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olymp View Post

    I even have samples from Tarn (purely from Tarn, in the South West of France, the non-Basque part) which clust closer to my Haut-de-France French (non-Flemish I specify) and Central French samples than of the Spaniards (non-Basque).

    I do not understand what your theory is but it does not stick to the reality of the samples I have available and which are closer to each other than to other non-French populations (I would expose a lot of them because I have).
    I'm surprised by this statement to say the least, please post your samples from southwest France in this case.

    This is my grandfather's results, all known ancestors from Haute-Garonne (Toulouse area) :

    G25 modern population similarities

    Distance to: Toulousain_scaled
    0.01591737 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
    0.01814885 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    0.01840173 Spanish_Girona
    0.01910662 Spanish_Penedes
    0.01953995 Spanish_Barcelones
    0.01977719 French_Auvergne
    0.02016025 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    0.02045752 Spanish_Pirineu
    0.02053252 Spanish_Cataluna
    0.02057620 Spanish_Lleida
    0.02144811 Spanish_Castello
    0.02261905 Spanish_Valencia
    0.02271941 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.02365189 Spanish_Baleares
    0.02368985 Swiss_French
    0.02371777 Spanish_Aragon
    0.02380992 French_Occitanie
    0.02439472 Spanish_Cantabria
    0.02466764 Spanish_Terres_de_l'Ebre
    0.02566709 Spanish_Eivissa
    0.02593498 Spanish_Alacant
    0.02597948 French_South
    0.02632349 Spanish_Navarra
    0.02675396 French_Provence
    0.02740577 Italian_Aosta_Valley

    He definitely clusters with northeastern Spaniards.

    # Population Percent
    1 North_Atlantic 41.11
    2 West_Med 27.87
    3 Baltic 14.58
    4 East_Med 12.40
    5 West_Asian 1.58
    6 East_Asian 0.95
    7 Amerindian 0.8
    8 Northeast_African 0.37
    9 Red_Sea 0.34

    Using 1 population approximation:
    1 Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.054712
    2 Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.798587
    3 Spanish_Valencia @ 5.036444
    4 Southwest_French @ 5.042833

    Using 2 populations approximation:
    1 50% Southwest_French +50% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.955918

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  12. #7
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    And a friend, all know ancestors from Gaillac (Tarn), un occitan, an interesting mix :
    Distance to: steph
    0.02612778 Spanish_Soria
    0.02737772 Spanish_Catalunya_Central
    0.02743929 Swiss_French
    0.02816896 French_Auvergne
    0.02835404 French_Occitanie
    0.02879034 Spanish_Girona
    0.02891622 Spanish_Penedes
    0.02918504 Italian_Aosta_Valley
    0.03028849 Spanish_Castello
    0.03062172 Spanish_Peri-Barcelona
    0.03073085 Spanish_Lleida
    0.03135703 Spanish_Cataluna
    0.03146959 Spanish_Mallorca
    0.03227078 Spanish_Camp_de_Tarragona
    0.03283610 French_South

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  14. #8
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    would samples from the Marseilles, Cannes, and Nice area cluster with North Italian?

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  16. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genos Historia View Post
    I'd agree, that France has very pure ancestry in that you guys clearly mostly come from pre-Roman/Iron age France. This is very interesting.

    But there's definitely regional variation in France. This is because there was regional variation in Iron age France. Not because France has recent admixture from outside.

    So I don't know why you are trying say all of France has the exact same ancestry?
    From time to time a user (not always, but most often French) comes challenging the French autosomal heterogeneity. It's a very curious phenomenon that I cannot explain. I'm unable to say how many studies, for eras, have observed and quantified the French heterogeneity in all the possible ways (including the use of AIMs, "Ancestral Informative Markers", for which the heterogeneity reaches surprising levels). It is simply an undebatable fact. On the French-speaking subforum, this problem has been debated ad nauseam, and once more very recently. In a recent post on this subforum, I was using PLINK and ibs pseudo-metric. Allow me to quote myself:

    What PLINK outputs is in fact an index of similarity, calculated on the whole genome, namely the proportion of SNPs of the same genotype. Two identical individuals (in fact a duplicated genome) give 1, two genomes without any common allele (which of course never happens) would give 0. To make it more meaningful I apply the -log function to this index. This -log d therefore varies from 0 to + infinite. Theoretically of course, because in reality even a Han Chinese and a Biaka Pygmy share a very large fraction of their genotypes. Here are some values ​​(max of each matrix):

    Orcadians: 0.2056143
    Spanish (includ. Spanish_North): 0.212196
    French (includ. French_South): 0.2142904
    Italians (includ. Sicilians): 0.2158217

    I looked at all the Western European groups present on HumanOrigins, and the French again represent the second greatest variability after the Italians. Then I did a little experiment. I added the Orcadians to Spanish_North. This group reaches the variability of 0.2082. Less than our 0.21429 ... To this group I added the Norwegians. Result: 0.2093. Even lower. Conclusion: there is more variability (thus measured) in the French group (HGDP + Lazaridis) than in the Spanish_North + Norwegian group.
    About the Iron Age now. The recently published thesis by Fischer shows (or pretendedly shows) that the Iron Age groups are rather diverse in their respective autosomal compositions:
    Capture.JPG
    It seems reasonable to presume that this diversity is in line with the diversity of the current French subpopulations. But to tell the truth, no one can seriously defend or challenge the continuity with the Iron Age, just because we have so far no Iron Age genome of reasonable coverage. The genomes analysed by Fischer are especially poor, and therefore, unfortunately, her thesis, in an autosomal point of view, is nearly unuseful.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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  18. #10
    Registered Users
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    Immi uiros rios toutias rias

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