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Thread: Why they don't plot together? (Northwest vs Northeast)

  1. #1
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    Why they don't plot together? (Northwest vs Northeast)

    What make different russian and ukrainians from irish or norwegians? They basically score the same amount of EEF vs STEPPE vs WHG?

    Target: Ukrainian
    Distance: 6.3110% / 0.06310993
    52.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
    32.6 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    15.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Target: Russian_Smolensk
    Distance: 7.2604% / 0.07260441
    52.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
    29.8 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    17.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 4.9374% / 0.04937376
    49.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
    36.4 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    13.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Target: Norwegian
    Distance: 4.9224% / 0.04922358
    50.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
    34.2 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    15.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

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  3. #2
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    I used this spreedsheet:
    Code:
    Early_Levantine_Farmer,0.020488,0.1431895,-0.0377125,-0.1387295,0.030775,-0.079484,-0.025616,-0.0175375,0.114329,0.002005,0.0332085,-0.0222555,0.076486,0.002133,0.0153365,0.009016,-0.0154505,-0.001014,-0.02206,0.040832,0.001497,0.0001235,-0.003636,-0.0044585,0.006287
    Steppe_Pastoralist,0.1255849,0.089028,0.0426986,0.1153479,-0.0287232,0.0450564,0.0036033,-0.0025642,-0.0559032,-0.0728943,0.0018222,3.32e-05,-0.0026924,-0.0233041,0.0366141,0.0157633,-0.0012316,-0.0017879,-0.0038408,0.0137704,-0.0031749,0.0007557,0.0110649,0.0186102,-0.004537
    Caucasian_HG,0.091058,0.102568,-0.083344,-0.00323,-0.08617,0.020638,0.024911,-0.001846,-0.128236,-0.074717,-0.006333,0.023979,-0.054856,0.004404,0.026601,-0.03275,0.02386,-0.013429,-0.022249,0.034767,0.033815,-0.007048,0.006532,-0.025787,-0.002036
    SSA,-0.6300625,0.0625011,0.022113,0.0167079,0.0005035,0 .0124741,-0.044417,0.0477673,-0.0488813,0.0327694,0.0046205,0.0007904,0.0230561, 0.0009509,0.0125232,-0.0096067,0.0070763,0.0004491,0.006022,-0.00299,0.0015542,0.0023156,-0.0017592,-0.0004711,-0.0004246
    SSA,-0.511066,0.043668,0.000754,0.000969,-0.00277,-0.011435,0.050997,-0.045229,0.089172,-0.087838,-0.012991,-0.002997,-0.031219,0.000688,0.02158,-0.029965,0.027772,0.039273,0.00176,-0.009004,0.000374,0.006183,-0.003451,-0.00241,-0.000838
    Western_Hunter-Gatherer,0.1246365,0.116278,0.184789,0.189279,0.1546445 ,0.0464355,0.0131605,0.0372675,0.0890705,0.017768,-0.0153455,-0.015811,0.0159065,-0.0030275,0.053338,0.0582065,0.00502,0.016343,-0.0093015,0.055589,0.0944585,0.0111905,-0.049607,-0.160866,0.0170045
    Iberomaurusian,-0.189857,0.0814452,-0.0242866,-0.085595,0.027636,-0.0552202,-0.0705968,0.0184146,0.155397,0.003499,0.0209156,-0.0318316,0.0747168,-0.0513334,0.0711988,-0.0363032,0.0052676,-0.066106,-0.1424162,0.0389938,-0.0376836,-0.1255322,0.0730118,-0.0137606,0.0164534
    Early_Anatolian_Farmer,0.1175998,0.180118,0.0035312,-0.101158,0.0510443,-0.0483875,-0.0043582,-0.0069334,0.0362287,0.0807473,0.0079718,0.0118803,-0.0234545,0.0004691,-0.0419807,-0.0101913,0.0233091,0.0019866,0.0136954,-0.0097489,-0.0142249,0.0057723,-0.0041232,-0.0031658,-0.0043437
    Iran_N,0.0430252,0.0664158,-0.1550722,0.0047158,-0.122669,0.0235384,0.017109,-0.0011998,-0.082546,-0.0544158,-0.0028258,-0.0016186,0.0044896,-0.0062756,0.0316498,0.0561384,-0.0054242,0.0068664,0.0136508,-0.0334162,0.00856,-0.028836,-0.0110678,-0.039331,0.0222254
    North/East_Asia,0.0206952,-0.4507105,-0.0082967,-0.0651579,0.0780846,0.0374475,0.0029055,-0.004804,-0.0150232,-0.0031146,-0.0495875,-0.0070573,0.0072707,-0.0081072,-0.0043305,0.0012535,0.0017542,-0.0008638,-0.0020455,-0.0102206,0.0122397,0.0069582,0.0141063,-0.0012925,-0.0022315
    North/East_Asia,0.0476917,-0.4066181,0.1557885,0.0023902,-0.1594452,-0.0882129,0.0285066,0.0433367,0.0310876,0.0128477, 0.1028569,0.0094115,-0.0040734,-0.0261619,-0.0219731,-0.0123307,-0.0010952,0.0134165,0.0268365,-0.0008505,0.0431363,-0.0118954,0.0336096,0.0003977,0.0135556
    South_Asia_Hunter-Gatherer,-0.025041,-0.224432,-0.11917,0.087856,0.022466,-0.001952,-0.003055,0.01223,0.060539,0.018406,0.012829,0.001199,-0.000446,0.006055,-0.007872,-0.006364,-0.00352,-0.00076,-0.005531,0.023386,0.006988,0.013107,-0.017131,-0.001325,0.003712
    Last edited by Andre; 01-04-2021 at 05:18 PM.

  4. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    What make different russian and ukrainians from irish or norwegians? They basically score the same amount of EEF vs STEPPE vs WHG?

    Target: Ukrainian
    Distance: 6.3110% / 0.06310993
    52.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
    32.6 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    15.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Target: Russian_Smolensk
    Distance: 7.2604% / 0.07260441
    52.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
    29.8 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    17.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 4.9374% / 0.04937376
    49.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
    36.4 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    13.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Target: Norwegian
    Distance: 4.9224% / 0.04922358
    50.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
    34.2 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    15.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
    You think that nothing has changed in 5000 years?
     
    All simple calculations, maps and plots I make for free, but for more complicated maps and calculations I ask for a donation via Hidden Content PayPalHidden Content account

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  6. #4
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    The distances are bigger for the Ukrainians and Russians. Maybe something is missing?
    23andme V5.9: 97.3% British and Irish, 2.3% Spanish and Portuguese, 0.2% Broadly Southern European, 0.2% Unassigned
    AncestryDNA 2020: 50% England & Northwestern Europe, 35% Ireland, 15% Scotland
    Paper trail to 1850s: County Mayo 25%, Essex 25%, London 15.625%, Hampshire/Southampton 12.5%, Lancashire/Liverpool 9.375%, Devon 6.25%, Suffolk 3.125%, County Cavan 3.125%, Gibraltar (military service)

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    @Ph2ter

    Of course i don't think so, but which are the components that make the division between them? Are not all the europeans (Except finno-ugrics, some mediterranean populations) just a mixture of those 3 macro-populations?

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    I believe the explanation is bronze age drift.

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    Add Karelia HG or Baltic Bronze Age. Alternatively do a custom PCA and see how they plot.

  11. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    What make different russian and ukrainians from irish or norwegians? They basically score the same amount of EEF vs STEPPE vs WHG?

    Target: Ukrainian
    Distance: 6.3110% / 0.06310993
    52.2 Steppe_Pastoralist
    32.6 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    15.2 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Target: Russian_Smolensk
    Distance: 7.2604% / 0.07260441
    52.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
    29.8 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    17.4 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Target: Irish
    Distance: 4.9374% / 0.04937376
    49.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
    36.4 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    13.8 Western_Hunter-Gatherer

    Target: Norwegian
    Distance: 4.9224% / 0.04922358
    50.8 Steppe_Pastoralist
    34.2 Early_Anatolian_Farmer
    15.0 Western_Hunter-Gatherer
    They are not so different. Don't let you blind by the graphic representations, and use tools more suitable to the problem. I made a quick job with the Reich_HumanOrigins file:
    I edited under PLINK the ibs matrix. "ibs" is the ratio of shared alleles between genomes. Two duplicated genome give "ibs = 1", two genomes sharing no alleles (which of course never happens) would give "ibs = 0". Eventually I computed under R the mean of the ibs between groups. Just look at this result (only one example:
    mean(English, Italian_North) = 0.7622772
    mean(English,Ukrainian) = 0.7627058
    So you can see that English (namely the English sample from Reich_HO, never forget that we aren't God, and work with real and limited data), share more alleles with Ukrainians (namely etc) than with north-Italians.
    En North alom, de North venom
    En North fum naiz, en North manom

    (Roman de Rou, Wace, 1160-1170)

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    Quote Originally Posted by anglesqueville View Post
    They are not so different. Don't let you blind by the graphic representations, and use tools more suitable to the problem. I made a quick job with the Reich_HumanOrigins file:
    I edited under PLINK the ibs matrix. "ibs" is the ratio of shared alleles between genomes. Two duplicated genome give "ibs = 1", two genomes sharing no alleles (which of course never happens) would give "ibs = 0". Eventually I computed under R the mean of the ibs between groups. Just look at this result (only one example:
    mean(English, Italian_North) = 0.7622772
    mean(English,Ukrainian) = 0.7627058
    So you can see that English (namely the English sample from Reich_HO, never forget that we aren't God, and work with real and limited data), share more alleles with Ukrainians (namely etc) than with north-Italians.
    The difference here is that North Italians have a clear ancestral component that pulls them away from English, while Balto-Slavs are more complicated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Andre View Post
    @Ph2ter

    Of course i don't think so, but which are the components that make the division between them? Are not all the europeans (Except finno-ugrics, some mediterranean populations) just a mixture of those 3 macro-populations?
    But these two populations didn't have much intermixing from the Bronze Age. They drifted apart.
     
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