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Thread: North Sea "outliers?

  1. #1
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    North Sea "outliers?

    This can fit in either North or West subsections here so I will ask openly instead.

    What exactly is meant by outliers, with specific regards to Icelandic, Shetlandic, and Orcadian, and what makes them so?

    I've read here and other places that when running autosomal data in particular, that unless you have direct and recent ancestry from these populations you should not include them because they "skew" North Sea regional results. Is this accurate?

    I open this up for deeper discussion that I'm sure will be above my head, but I hope to gain some understanding from it as well. For now, can anyone break this down and explain it on a layman's level?

    Thanks.

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  3. #2
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    I wouldn't necessarily call them "outliers", as they tend to be in between 2 or more source pops, but, unless one has Orcadian, Shetlandic, or Icelandic, ancestry, IMO they aren't very helpful as they tend to take from other pops during runs. These populations are destinations rather than origins and are mixtures of source populations e.g. Norwegians & Scots.

    I guess they are interesting to look at, if you are curious what pops you are most similar to and aren't concerned about where your actual ancestry is from.
    Last edited by MitchellSince1893; 01-06-2021 at 10:20 PM.
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    37% English, 26% Scot/Ulster Scot, 14% Welsh, 14% German, 3% Ireland, 3% Nordic, 2% French/Dutch, 1% India
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  5. #3
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    I wouldn’t consider them outliers. However, the overlap between the NW regions rather means not to take Icelandic as actual Icelandic but more so a proxy for the region. I think trying to accurately divide that region sends people down a rabbit hole of no return...
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


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  7. #4
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    I remove Iceland from Modern Averages because otherwise I end up the Queen of Iceland.

    Distance to: Lana_scaled
    0.02166400 Icelandic

    Target: Lana_scaled
    Distance: 1.7559% / 0.01755854
    59.0 Icelandic

    Iceland overwhelms everything else.
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  9. #5
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    Mine if Icelandic and Orcadian are included.

    Target: Tim_scaled
    Distance: 1.4096% / 0.01409632 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    84.4 Orcadian
    14.6 Icelandic
    1.0 Igorot


    Without them

    Target: Tim_scaled
    Distance: 1.6022% / 0.01602181 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    82.4 Scottish
    14.2 Irish
    1.8 Finnish
    0.8 Igorot
    0.8 Swedish
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  11. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by firemonkey View Post
    Mine if Icelandic and Orcadian are included.

    Target: Tim_scaled
    Distance: 1.4096% / 0.01409632 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    84.4 Orcadian
    14.6 Icelandic
    1.0 Igorot


    Without them

    Target: Tim_scaled
    Distance: 1.6022% / 0.01602181 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    82.4 Scottish
    14.2 Irish
    1.8 Finnish
    0.8 Igorot
    0.8 Swedish
    so you get a closer distance with "destination" populations rather than origin populations. what does that all mean? while closer is generally a better fit, I've learned not to be a slave to the closest distance.

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    I mean, this is why using G25 for modern pops is kinda a crapshoot, unless you can prove the modern samples are in fact homogeneous enough to be used as an example for a region.

    And one needs to have a general idea of their background or else all bets are off as it can cause a lot of confusion. I can model myself as part Jewish with selective sample cherry-picking. That’s an extreme example but it illustrates how unhelpful this can be if you go about it incorrectly.
    Last edited by digital_noise; 01-06-2021 at 11:47 PM.
    distance%=4.6465"
    Barcin_N,47.2
    Yamnaya_Samara,41.4
    WHG,10.6
    Ethiopia_4500BP,0.8


    E-V13 => E-PH1246 => E-BY14160
    Antonio Reale born circa 1710, Ciminą (RC) Italy

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  14. #8
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    Without Icelandic and Orcadian

    Target: Tim_Mother_test_Scaled
    Distance: 2.1725% / 0.02172491 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    88.2 Irish
    6.8 Finnish
    2.0 Scottish
    1.6 Karitiana
    0.8 Khomani_San
    0.4 Mbuti
    0.2 Igorot


    Target: Tim_G_father_scaled
    Distance: 2.1368% / 0.02136817 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    65.0 English_Cornwall
    23.6 English
    5.8 Swedish
    3.8 Lithuanian_PZ
    1.8 Yemenite_Mahra

    With them

    Target: Tim_Mother_test_Scaled
    Distance: 2.1047% / 0.02104673 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    49.6 Orcadian
    24.6 Icelandic
    20.4 Irish
    2.2 Norwegian
    1.6 Karitiana
    0.8 Khomani_San
    0.6 Igorot
    0.2 Mbuti


    Target: Tim_G_father_scaled
    Distance: 2.0667% / 0.02066676 | ADC: 0.25x RC
    57.4 Icelandic
    28.4 English_Cornwall
    8.4 Spanish_Pais_Vasco
    3.4 French_Seine-Maritime
    2.4 Yemenite_Mahra
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  16. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by digital_noise View Post
    I mean, this is why using G25 for modern pops is kinda a crapshoot, unless you can prove the modern samples are in fact homogeneous enough to be used as an example for a region.

    And one needs to have a general idea of their background or else all bets are off as it can cause a lot of confusion. I can model myself as part Jewish with selective sample cherry-picking. That’s an extreme example but it illustrates how unhelpful this can be if you go about it incorrectly.
    How should you go about it correctly?
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  18. #10
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    They aren't outliers but they are a sink and not source populations. I'm one of those that get a big chunk of Icelandic. When it is removed it increases my Irish and Swedish (for some odd reason) i.e. Gaelic and Scandinavian.

    Icelandic people are a 70% Scandinavian 30% Gaelic mix.

    They are also small, island populations so they just skew people's results. Generally I remove Icelandic, Orcadian etc. Of course if people have ancestry from these populations then that should be taken into account. I have no known ancestry from Iceland as all my family have been born in Ireland via papertrail since the late 1700s.
    Last edited by Jessie; 01-07-2021 at 01:22 PM.

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