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Thread: The genetic makeup of Finns

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    I wonder if V10 here is just a proxy for something like Vepsians?
    It can't be Vepsians in the modern sense, because East Finns(except maybe 5) exceed Vepsians and Olonets Karelians in this regard. I have to drop Levanluhta_IA here because that's not where Veps' Siberian comes specifically.

    Target: Vepsian
    Distance: 1.3386% / 0.01338585
    22.6 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_X15_2
    22.0 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    20.2 EST_MA:TPM003
    16.0 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M
    8.4 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001
    7.4 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ4
    3.4 RUS_Poltavka_o:I0432

    Target: Karelian_Olonets
    Distance: 1.3819% / 0.01381889
    29.2 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    23.0 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_X15_2
    15.6 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M
    11.0 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ4
    8.0 RUS_Poltavka_o:I0432
    6.6 RUS_Krasnoyarsk_BA:kra001
    4.0 EST_MA:TPM003
    2.6 VK2020_NOR_North_LN_HG:VK531

    I get that you find it weird that there's a belt of Balts surrounding you, but that's how it goes. SW Finns are gonna be closer to Veps than to you, and especially the ones with lower than average Germanic.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    I get that you find it weird that there's a belt of Balts surrounding you, but that's how it goes.
    Indeed I do, so some kind of a handy explanation like Vepsians would be most welcome. But, apparently only new ancient samples from some currently unknown place will do the trick. Many thanks for taking the time and effort!

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Indeed I do, so some kind of a handy explanation like Vepsians would be most welcome. But, apparently only new ancient samples from some currently unknown place will do the trick. Many thanks for taking the time and effort!
    It has always bothered me that we have no idea where Finns come from and came to be like the way they are, and no one had any kind of answers to offer except ones which are complete nonsense. I think we might be halfway to having the answers which is better than nowhere, just a few weeks ago.
    Things took some weirder turns but what else to except with Finns. Of course it wasn't gonna be boring.

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  6. #44
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    When these V10-types moved to Pirkanmaa/Tavastia(probably with N-CTS4329) it seems like they had no pretty much none of this ber1m thing. Then it jumps up to even 48% in some East Finn-like individuals.

    Target: Pirkanmaa
    Distance: 1.7613% / 0.01761330
    33.6 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    26.2 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ4
    18.0 FIN_Levanluhta_IA:JK1968
    16.2 EST_MA:TPM003
    6.0 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M

    Target: Finnish:HG00318
    Distance: 2.4083% / 0.02408277
    48.4 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M
    31.8 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    15.0 FIN_Levanluhta_IA:JK1968
    3.0 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ4
    1.8 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_X15_2

    I guess you could imagine it's because of some admixture from more recent times even though the mainstream, modern Scandinavian component is low. But still this shift affects every single East Finn to a lesser extent 3/4 of East Karelians and Vepsians too as far as I can tell. East Finns consistently show up as sharing the exact same kind of affinities as Ber1m(SVK_EBA, Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main etc). Is there really nothing in archaeology or anything that might justify this component? Rus Vikings probably don't quite work out even if that too is a small part of it as I think they had a bit higher SZ4.

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  8. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post


    vik_84001 also fits in that theme so this kind of ancestry didn't go away after the BA.

    Target: SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
    Distance: 1.9428% / 0.01942812
    50.4 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M
    32.4 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ4
    17.2 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    Just by looking at these one could imagine that ber1m possibly represents some kind of an old, mixed Scandinavian element, maybe born in the Ladoga region and Sz4 then stands for more modern Scandinavian? V10, on the other hand, possibly represents the oldest East Finnics/Pre Finnics (maybe Volkhov area Chud' or something along those lines), before the Rus' related Scandinavian admix and fex the shift from Finnish_East_3 to Finnish_East_2, related to Levänluhta, shows the Saami admixture and is based on the Karelian expansion from Ladoga?

    Just by based on linguistic material only I'm BTW pretty sure that Chud' of the Volkhov region were quite seriously mixed with some Baltic or Balto-Slavic speaking group.

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  10. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Just by looking at these one could imagine that ber1m possibly represents some kind of an old, mixed Scandinavian element, maybe born in the Ladoga region and Sz4 then stands for more modern Scandinavian? V10, on the other hand, possibly represents the oldest East Finnics/Pre Finnics (maybe Volkhov area Chud' or something along those lines), before the Rus' related Scandinavian admix and fex the shift from Finnish_East_3 to Finnish_East_2, related to Levänluhta, shows the Saami admixture and is based on the Karelian expansion from Ladoga?

    Just by based on linguistic material only I'm BTW pretty sure that Chud' of the Volkhov region were quite seriously mixed with some Baltic or Balto-Slavic speaking group.
    Yep, modern day Scandinavians get more SZ4 except very rare individuals. Viking Age individuals sometimes had high Ber1m but never enough. I can't help but think of something called the Morby culture in modern day Helsinki/Espoo. It was apparently some pocket of Scandinavians in the 1st millenium BC. Fenno-Swede researchers I think studied it to prove they were in Finland first or something, but I guess that kind of thing is passé nowadays in academia so no one cares about it anymore.
    It might be a little bit too early to be relevant but until some better ideas come up it might still be the best option.
    I've suspected the RUS_Ingria_IA samples might not be, ahem, "Real" Uralic speakers but Baltic speakers who lived with Uralics or had recently shifted. One sample not on G25 was apparently slightly more Siberian than them. Maybe this kind of people affected Vologda, and Vepsians and East Karelians. Probably more sources for Baltic ancestry too. Northeastern Estonians probably don't have much to do with them, being more like V10 themselves just like TUD001 but having some Levänluhta from assimilated 17th century Ingrians/Savonians.

    Target: Estonian:Est380
    Distance: 2.9571% / 0.02957064
    47.0 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    13.4 FIN_Levanluhta_IA:JK1968
    12.4 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M
    11.4 HUN_MA_Szolad:SZ4
    9.2 EST_MA:TPM003
    6.6 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_X15_2
    Last edited by Standardized Ape; 09-22-2021 at 01:04 PM.

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  12. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    I can't help but think of something called the Morby culture in modern day Helsinki/Espoo. It was apparently some pocket of Scandinavians in the 1st millenium BC.
    Possibly, but Viking Age Scandinavians were also living among Ladogan Chud' by the river routes in the South/South East of the Ladoga area, such as near Säsjoki/Syas/Сясь. There are remains of Houses of Death and Scandinavian kurgan burials next to each other.

  13. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Possibly, but Viking Age Scandinavians were also living among Ladogan Chud' by the river routes in the South/South East of the Ladoga area, such as near Säsjoki/Syas/Сясь. There are remains of Houses of Death and Scandinavian kurgan burials next to each other.
    There are a ton of Viking samples from Ladoga but even they don't compare with vik_84001, which itself can not entirely replace Ber1m. They may have been mercenaries though from all over Scandinavia.
    But maybe if there were more like vik_84001 somewhere at the Ladoga they could explain why 3 and 4 do not quite look the direct ancestors of 2 when combined with some Saami.

    Target: Finnish_East_3
    Distance: 1.4244% / 0.01424441
    35.8 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
    28.8 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    13.0 FIN_Levanluhta_IA:JK1968
    12.6 Pirkanmaa
    9.8 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M

    Target: Finnish_East_4
    Distance: 1.3306% / 0.01330558
    27.0 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    24.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
    20.8 FIN_Levanluhta_IA:JK1968
    11.6 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M
    9.4 Pirkanmaa
    7.2 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_X15_2

    Target: Finnish_East_2
    Distance: 1.6471% / 0.01647124
    41.6 Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    25.2 FIN_Levanluhta_IA:JK1968
    20.2 SWE_Battle_Axe:ber1M
    8.0 SWE_Viking_Age_Sigtuna:vik_84001
    2.6 Baltic_EST_BA:s19_X15_2
    2.4 Pirkanmaa

    But these are not the most telling models I think. I think I understand now why Finnish geneticists are having trouble with interpreting ancient DNA results. It's confusing enough with a nifty PCA-based tool. It might take them a few years.

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  15. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standardized Ape View Post
    There are a ton of Viking samples from Ladoga but even they don't compare with vik_84001, which itself can not entirely replace Ber1m. They may have been mercenaries though from all over Scandinavia.
    But maybe if there were more like vik_84001 somewhere at the Ladoga they could explain why 3 and 4 do not quite look the direct ancestors of 2 when combined with some Saami.
    Right, but ber1m is apparently not the only problem. If FE_2 had less Levänluhta, say the same amount that FE_3 has, V10 would already exceed 50 %, ceteris paribus. It is just too Baltic (or Balto-Slavic?) like, compared to other FE's, even without X15_2.

  16. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huck Finn View Post
    Right, but ber1m is apparently not the only problem. If FE_2 had less Levänluhta, say the same amount that FE_3 has, V10 would already exceed 50 %, ceteris paribus. It is just too Baltic (or Balto-Slavic?) like, compared to other FE's, even without X15_2.
    I have no idea about Levänluhta levels as they probably varied between individuals as much then as now if not more but I'm pretty sure we need something like V10 but less EST_BA. V10 itself can be modeled as 50% FE_2, 50% Lithuanian. No Cossacks necessary.

    Target: Baltic_EST_IA:s19_V10_2
    Distance: 3.6872% / 0.03687209 | R5P
    50.8 Finnish_East_2
    49.2 Lithuanian_SZ

    As for the Balto-Slavicness of the "Kuban", it's kind of like Balts and Slavs are brothers and this stuff is the cousin. Balts and Slavs are gonna be closer no matter what. For some weird reason though, Slovaks seem a bit more similar to this stuff. Not really anyone else excluding of course people randomly scattered across Russia.

    I think this is the best model for Kuban Cossacks. It's hard to model this guy because he loves Baltic BA but doesn't need it.

    Target: Cossack_Kuban
    Distance: 1.7866% / 0.01786633 | R3P
    32.0 Scythian_UKR:MJ14
    30.2 VK2020_NOR_North_VA_o2:VK519
    24.0 VK2020_RUS_Pskov_VA:VK159
    13.8 Scythian_UKR:scy009

    NOR_North_VA_o2 probably some mixture of Saami and Komi or some other Permic and represents probably West Uralics. Pskov_VA is Baltic/Slavic. Those Scythians are kind of Balto-Slavic too in a more obscure way.

    I can't bother doing a proper model for this guy but this will do. You get the picture.

    Target: Scythian_UKR:MJ14
    Distance: 3.6332% / 0.03633206 | R4P
    52.0 Lithuanian_RA
    35.4 Slovakian
    10.2 Georgian_Laz
    2.4 Papuan

    It's really not what we're looking for but maybe closer to it than Balts and Slavs.

    Edit: actually now it's starting to look like VA_o2 was just a mix of FE and Permics. So this is another circular model.

    Target: VK2020_NOR_North_VA_o2:VK519
    Distance: 2.5939% / 0.02593899 | R5P
    31.8 Finnish_East_3
    30.4 Udmurt
    27.2 Finnish_East_1
    7.2 Saami_Kola
    3.4 Sakha
    Last edited by Standardized Ape; 09-22-2021 at 10:02 PM.

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