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Thread: seldom terminal clades in J2a (position investigation)

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    seldom terminal clades in J2a (position investigation)

    Since MolGen Forum is currently down I like to reconstruct as far as possible a thread there:

    This thread here was opened by me to maybe discover the position of J2a Haplogroups L26+ not tested for anyone of the following new SNPs downstream of J2a-L26 (FTDNA still lists it as J2a4):
    Z6055 (shared with M68),
    PF5087/CTS1230 (shared between PF5160/Z2221 and PF5116),
    PF5160/Z2221, PF5197/Z2397, YSC0000253, PF5172, PF5169, PF5174,
    PF5116, Z2227,PF5119, L558/PF7408, Z6065


    M339 (former J2a9, FTDNA J2a4e, ISOGG J2a1e): Eastern Anatolia; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    near to haplotype
    • Zisa in J2a-Z2227,PF5119*C (semargl SMGF-05 / HXZPA) Sicilian ancestry. Could be interesting: I expect unknown haplotype and clade structure below this paragroup.
    • Nosari J2a-L25 (semargl SMGF-06 / 8AFK6) maybe is also interesting? Surname origin focus Lombardia, North Italy. DavidD has listed a Zaccaria Nosari 1842 in his J2a4h 445=10 Google Map as L25+ with origin in Luzzara, Emilia-Romagna, North Italy. Haplotype possibly those from SMGF (see also Família Zaccaria Nozari Brasil). I think L25 was not tested by Cinnioglu et al. (2004), while M67 should be. I'm no L25 HT expert though.



    M419 (former J2a11, FTDNA J2a4f, ISOGG J2a1f): South Iran, Ireland; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    kit N52859 Weddell (Harvey) (Y-DNA12 + Deep Clade: M172+, M410+, M419+, M137-, M319-, M322-, M47-, M67-, P81-) from Ireland DNA project. Surname origin Weddell focus England. Surname origin Harvey focus England and Ireland.
    near to haplotype
    • 251176 Anniello Guiseppe, b. 1873 Benevento, South Italy J2
    • Mabilia Campania South Italy (SMGF, semargl SMGF-03)
    • 271420 Leap John Wesley Leap, Mannheim, Rhine-Neckar, Germany J2
    • 540 Benevento Boattini et al 2013 Italy Table S2 STR-19 J2a-M410 (xM67,M92)
    • Iranians (semargl SMGF-04 and SMGF-24)
    • 186284 Arab الشمري Saudi Arabia*J2
    • 180375 Burks Unknown Origin J2
    • 117414 Burks Unknown Origin J2
    • 189128 Erberto Calzaretta b circa 1730 Italy J2
    • 154962 Frady Margertt Deitz/Dietz Unknown Origin J2a4i
    • 83514 Dietz johan b1728 d 1810 J2a4
    • 194141 Stirnimann Canton Lucerne Switzerland J2
    • 9856▷Schrag Ulrich b~1740 Windstein,Alsace Switzerland J2a4i
    • 153545 Ahsai-AlAhsai عبدالمنعم بن علي بن علي بن غانم الجبيلي Saudi Arabia J2a4i
    • N104541 Jafari Seyed Unknown Origin J2a4i

    So this looks like PF5169+ and also L198 should be checked on the whole cluster.

    P81 (former J2a12, FTDNA J2a4g, ISOGG J2a1g): Ukraine; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    Kit 130992 adapted, 1944, Ukraine (67 Markers, L26+, L27+, M172+, M410+, P81+, L24-, L25-, M137-, M158-, M318-, M319-, M339-, M419-, M47-, M67-, P279-) is in J and Polish Project.
    near to haplotype


    Some information from the latest MolGen post is not reconstructed and eventually could be merged here.
    Last edited by ChrisR; 03-05-2014 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Formatting, SNPs
    Particularly interested in: DNA/Admixture from Historical Tyrol, Central Alps and related/connected populations; Y-DNA J2a-M67-L210, J2a-PF5197-PF5169, R1a-M17, R1b-U106-Z372; mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d2-A11884G, U5a2b2-G10685A, U5b1b1-b-T16192C! Projects: Hidden Content , Hidden Content , J2a-PF5197, ISOGG Wiki, GenWiki (german)

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    Archiving of MolGen posts in seldom terminal clades in J2a (position investigation):

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR Sun Aug 11, 2013 1:06 pm
    I'd like to open a new thread to collect information about seldom SNPs in J2a-L26 with no information on Z2221, PF5119 and the unnamed SNP upstream of M68 and a Sardinian lineage, where no or only very small kit numbers are available for further testing. See J-L26 J2a1/J2a3/J2a4 subclades SNP discoveries news info:

    Quote Originally Posted by JaG
    M339: one individual from Eastern Anatolia listed by Cinnioglu et al. (2004) "Excavating Y chromosome haplotype strata in Anatolia". AFAIK, no more derived samples were found by FTDNA or other labs.

    Modal J2a in Anatolia is very likely PF5116+ and Z2227,PF5119+
    Beard: surname origin focus Southwest England; a kit 24814 Beard J2 (67 Markers) is available in Bard FTDNA Project. Needs further investigation.
    Zisa: surname origin focus Lombardia, North Italy. No public Haplotype found. Needs further investigation.
    Nosari: surname origin focus Lombardia, North Italy. DavidD has listed a Zaccaria Nosari 1842 in his J2a4h 445=10 Google Map with origin in Luzzara, Emilia-Romagna, North Italy. Haplotype possibly those from SMGF (see also Família Zaccaria Nozari Brasil). Needs further investigation.

    Quote Originally Posted by JaG
    M419: kit N52859 (Y-DNA12 + Deep Clade) from Ireland DNA project.

    Weddell (Harvey) kit N52859 has not yet updated his kit. Surname origin Weddell focus England. Surname origin Harvey focus England and Ireland. Needs further investigation.
    Mabilia: surname origin focus Veneto, North Italy and Napoli, South Italy. No public Haplotype found. Needs further investigation.

    P81
    Kit 130992 adapted, 1944, Ukraine (67 Markers) is in J and Polish Project. Needs further investigation.

    Semargl SNP list was not available currently. Needs further investigation.
    Quote Originally Posted by horncastle Sun Aug 11, 2013 10:00 pm
    Unless you have specific information that this Beard does indeed come from the South West of England, I'd suggest that Norfolk and Bedfordshire might be more likely. J2a is perhaps more likely in those areas than the South West. Beard is a multiple origin surname and in this case might be linked with Baarda of Netherlands.
    Quote Originally Posted by JaG Mon Aug 12, 2013 8:39 am
    24814 Beard is M92+, despite DYS388=12 oddity, very different haplotype from the one on the printscreen.
    Zisa belongs to J2a1-C, he's of Sicilian ancestry.
    Nosari (on the David's map) is L25+.
    Mabilia is from Campania. I tentatively put him and the Iranian in 'pre-M419' group. There's also another Iranian there. They all have very unusual haplotypes and share .4 micro-allele in DYS448.
    Link
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:02 pm
    Thank you JaG for making your research on these haplotypes public.
    Thank you horncastle for your indication.

    M339 (Eastern Anatolia)
    The oldest SMGF Beard ancestor of this haplotype is Thomas BEARD b. 1781 Marston Morteyne, Bedfordshire, England. The sample donor is probably still living in Bedfordshire. See mygenerations.us. After a quick test his DYS388 is 13: very unlikely that a mutation to/from 17 did happen. So maybe it is not worth to look in to this haplotype.
    Zisa in J2a-Z2227,PF5119*C (semargl SMGF-05 / HXZPA) could be interesting: I expect unknown haplotype and clade structure below this paragroup.
    Nosari J2a-L25 (semargl SMGF-06 / 8AFK6) maybe is also interesting? I think L25 was not tested by Cinnioglu et al. (2004), while M67 should be. I'm no L25 HT expert though.

    M419 (?, Ireland)
    SMGF Mabilia Campania (semargl SMGF-03) as the Iranians (semargl SMGF-04 and SMGF-24) is interesting then. I think I have tried to contact Weddell (Harvey) kit N52859 without success. Very difficult to find the position under J2a-L26, because here N52859 has L24- M67- etc (old J2a4*).

    P81 (Ukraine)
    the following distant matches to Kit 130992 could be interesting and point to a more likely position under J2a-Z2227,PF5119*
    251196 Abdulfettah Turkey (J2 project, semargl).
    259014 Georgia (Georgia Project, semargl)
    166329 Armenia is also not far away but J2a4* (old FTDNA deep clade, P81-) and also a Cluster *B candidate (possibly PF5169+)

    All in all all three still seem to be very small clades. (EDIT of the post later)
    Quote Originally Posted by JaG Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:18 pm
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR
    The oldest SMGF Beard ancestor of this haplotype is Thomas BEARD b. 1781 Marston Morteyne, Bedfordshire, England. The sample donor is probably still living in Bedfordshire. See mygenerations.us. After a quick test his DYS388 is 13: very unlikely that a mutation to/from 17 did happen. So maybe it is not worth to look in to this haplotype.
    and DYS459=8-10 and YCAII=20-20 and DYS438=10 and DYS452=29, hence he's unlikely J2, probably J1.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR
    P81 (Ukraine)
    the following distant matches to Kit 130992 could be interesting ...
    251196 Abdulfettah Turkey (J2 project, semargl).
    259014 Georgia (Georgia Project, semargl)
    Agree
    Quote Originally Posted by horncastle Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:12 am
    Marston Morteyne in Bedfordshire held by two Flemings in 1086, one of whom was j2a himself. Suggests Beard ancestor was from Flanders and arrived 1066. The name perhaps suggests later as the Flemish links continued.
    Wedell/Waddle is a name from the Borders (SE Scotland/NE England) exactly where I'd expect to find j2a. Many people deported from here in 17th century to ireland particularly Fermanagh. Harvey is more of a southern english name and not a good candidate for j2a. so I'd take wedell to be the genetic name. Could be wrong of course.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR Tue Aug 20, 2013 10:34 am
    @horncastle: your comments allow a nice combination of classic and genetic genealogy research. We still need to get more genetic information (samples) from this SNPs and surnames to have enough evidence.
    Quote Originally Posted by JaG Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:46 pm
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR
    M419 (former J2a11, FTDNA J2a4f, ISOGG J2a1f): South Iran, Ireland; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    kit N52859 Weddell (Harvey) (Y-DNA12 + Deep Clade: L24- M67- etc. = old J2a4*) from Ireland DNA project.
    near to haplotype
    Mabilia Campania (SMGF, semargl SMGF-03)
    Iranians (semargl SMGF-04 and SMGF-24)
    Matches from FTDNA (Y37):
    251176 Anniello from Italy/J2-M172 projects
    186284 from the J2-Middle East project

    PF5169? L198? M419?
    251176 possibly got his result after FTDNA has begun to report micro-alleles.
    Particularly interested in: DNA/Admixture from Historical Tyrol, Central Alps and related/connected populations; Y-DNA J2a-M67-L210, J2a-PF5197-PF5169, R1a-M17, R1b-U106-Z372; mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d2-A11884G, U5a2b2-G10685A, U5b1b1-b-T16192C! Projects: Hidden Content , Hidden Content , J2a-PF5197, ISOGG Wiki, GenWiki (german)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisR View Post
    Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:04 pm
    Resummarize

    M419 (former J2a11, FTDNA J2a4f, ISOGG J2a1f): South Iran, Ireland; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    L25 was probably not tested by Cinnioglu et al. (2004), while M67 should be. L25 haplotypes experts may know.
    Rootsi: "I wonder if M419 is really reliable. It's a deletion involving a poly-A string."
    kit N52859 Weddell (Harvey) (Y12, Old Deep Clade: M172+, M410+, M419+, M102-, M12-, M137-, M319-, M322-, M47-, M67-, P81- = old J2a4*) from Ireland DNA project.
    Near to haplotype:
    Mabilia Campania (Y43, semargl SMGF-03)
    Iranians (Y43, semargl SMGF-04 and SMGF-24)
    251176 Anniello Benevento Italy (Y37, J2-M172 project)
    186284 الشمري (Shammari) (Y37, M172+, J2 Middle East project)
    271420 Lieb Germany (Y37, J-Project and Leap) was reported by Rootsi as unusual haplotype possibly matching to N52859. He is also similar to N104541 Jafari (PF5169+? L198+) and M6882 Al-Hashimi (Z6055+? M68+)

    P81 (former J2a12, FTDNA J2a4g, ISOGG J2a1g): Ukraine; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    Kit 130992 adapted, 1944, Ukraine (67 Markers, old J2a4*) is in J and Polish Project.
    near to haplotype
    251196 Abdulfettah Turkey (Y67 J2 project, semargl).
    259014 Georgia (Y37, Georgia Project, semargl)
    166329 Armenia Y67 is also not far away but J2a4* (old FTDNA deep clade, P81-) and also a Cluster *B candidate (possibly PF5172+)

    M339 (former J2a9, FTDNA J2a4e, ISOGG J2a1e): Eastern Anatolia; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    near to haplotype
    Zisa in J2a-Z2227,PF5119*C (semargl SMGF-05 / HXZPA) could be interesting: I expect unknown haplotype and clade structure below this paragroup.
    Nosari J2a-L25 (semargl SMGF-06 / 8AFK6) maybe is also interesting? I think L25 was not tested by

    M158 (former J2a5, FTDNA J2a4h1, ISOGG J2a1h1): Central Asia, India, Iraq, Libya and Pakistan; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    Near to haplotype/s:
    Malaysia @ SMGF with only 17 Markers, see semargl HT, selection of interesting matches difficult.
    [/QUOTE]

    Fri Mar 07, 2014 12:50 am
    Resummarize:
    This thread here was opened by me to maybe discover the position of J2a Haplogroups L26+ not tested for anyone of the following new SNPs downstream of J2a-L26 (FTDNA still lists it as J2a4):
    Z6055 (shared with M68),
    PF5087/CTS1230 (shared between PF5160/Z2221 and PF5116),
    PF5160/Z2221, PF5197/Z2397, YSC0000253, PF5172, PF5169, PF5174,
    PF5116, Z2227,PF5119, L558/PF7408, Z6065

    M419 (former J2a11, FTDNA J2a4f, ISOGG J2a1f): South Iran, Ireland; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    L25 was probably not tested by Cinnioglu et al. (2004), while M67 should be. L25 haplotypes experts may know.
    Rootsi: "I wonder if M419 is really reliable. It's a deletion involving a poly-A string."
    kit N52859 Weddell (Harvey) (Y12, Old Deep Clade: M172+, M410+, M419+, M102-, M12-, M137-, M319-, M322-, M47-, M67-, P81- = old J2a4*) from Ireland DNA project.
    Near to haplotype:
    251176 Anniello Benevento South Italy (Y37, J2-M172 project)
    Mabilia Campania South Italy (Y43, semargl SMGF-03)
    271420 Lieb Germany (Y37, J-Project and Leap) was reported by Rootsi as unusual haplotype possibly matching to N52859. He is also similar to N104541 Jafari (PF5169+? L198+) and M6882 Al-Hashimi (Z6055+? M68+)
    540 Benevento Boattini et al 2013 Italy Table S2 STR-19 J2a-M410 (xM67,M92)
    Iranians (Y43, semargl SMGF-04 and SMGF-24)
    186284 الشمري (Shammari) (Y37, M172+, J2 Middle East project)
    180375 Burks Unknown Origin J2
    117414 Burks Unknown Origin J2
    189128 Erberto Calzaretta b circa 1730 Italy J2 (surname common in Salerno, Campania, South Italy)
    154962 Frady Margertt Deitz/Dietz Unknown Origin J2a4i
    83514 Dietz johan b1728 d 1810 J2a4
    194141 Stirnimann Canton Lucerne Switzerland J2
    9856▷Schrag Ulrich b~1740 Windstein,Alsace Switzerland J2a4i
    153545 Ahsai-Al Ahsai عبدالمنعم بن علي بن علي بن غانم الجبيلي Saudi Arabia J2a4i
    N104541 Jafari Seyed Unknown Origin J2a4i

    P81 (former J2a12, FTDNA J2a4g, ISOGG J2a1g): Ukraine; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    Kit 130992 adapted, 1944, Ukraine (67 Markers, old J2a4*) is in J and Polish Project. According to regrouping in J-Project (only major J2a subclades) kit 130992 best fits to the J2a1a2-Z6055 group (incl. M68 and the Montgomery-Cluster)
    near to haplotype
    251196 Abdulfettah Turkey (Y67 J2 project, semargl).
    259014 Georgia (Y37, Georgia Project, semargl)
    166329 Armenia Y67 is also not far away but J2a4* (old FTDNA deep clade, P81-) and also a Cluster *B candidate (possibly PF5172+)

    M339 (former J2a9, FTDNA J2a4e, ISOGG J2a1e): Eastern Anatolia; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    near to haplotype
    Zisa in J2a-Z2227,PF5119*C (semargl SMGF-05 / HXZPA) could be interesting: I expect unknown haplotype and clade structure below this paragroup.
    Nosari J2a-L25 (semargl SMGF-06 / 8AFK6) maybe is also interesting? I think L25 was not tested by

    M158 (former J2a5, FTDNA J2a4h1, ISOGG J2a1h1): Central Asia, India, Iraq, Libya and Pakistan; not reccurent according to semargl and 1kGtree.A-C (GregM et al unpublished)
    Near to haplotype/s:
    Malaysia @ SMGF with only 17 Markers, see semargl HT, selection of interesting matches difficult.
    Particularly interested in: DNA/Admixture from Historical Tyrol, Central Alps and related/connected populations; Y-DNA J2a-M67-L210, J2a-PF5197-PF5169, R1a-M17, R1b-U106-Z372; mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d2-A11884G, U5a2b2-G10685A, U5b1b1-b-T16192C! Projects: Hidden Content , Hidden Content , J2a-PF5197, ISOGG Wiki, GenWiki (german)

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    Wed May 21, 2014 2:32 pm
    271420 Lieb Germany is M419+
    Wed Aug 13, 2014 1:43 am
    FT-130992 Ukraine is J2a PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>Z2227>Z6065>P81
    He shares one SNP with the single M47 public Y-sequence (1kG HG02490 PJL-Punjabi): 18727829 (C->T);
    So I think it is a close call for a own haplogroup, if there is one it has split again shortly after Z6055.
    http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2a1a1b1b
    Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:42 pm
    FT-N124374 (Geno 2.0 only) is J2a PF4610>L26>PF5087>PF5116>Z2227>?>M339
    His origin, Y37 haplotype (markers) and L558 and Z6065 would be interesting.
    Geno 2.0 Result FT-N124374:
    CTS10036+, CTS1030+, CTS10362+, CTS1068+, CTS10711+, CTS10858+, CTS109+, CTS113+, CTS11358+, CTS11571+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11765+, CTS11787+, CTS11983+, CTS12014+, CTS12015+, CTS12047+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2192+, CTS2769+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3936+, CTS3996+, CTS4360+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4443+, CTS4540+, CTS4740+, CTS5066+, CTS5280+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5482+, CTS5532+, CTS5628+, CTS5867+, CTS6135+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS6932+, CTS7404+, CTS7683+, CTS7738+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8243+, CTS8264+, CTS852+, CTS886+, CTS8938+, CTS8980+, CTS9240+, CTS9718+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1167+, F1181+, F1183+, F1209+, F1227+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1450+, F1460+, F1559+, F1634+, F1704+, F1714+, F1744+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2078+, F2116+, F2142+, F2155+, F2174+, F2276+, F2302+, F2345+, F2366+, F2390+, F2402+, F2418+, F2502+, F2587+, F2672+, F2688+, F2710+, F2746+, F2749+, F2769+, F2794+, F2817+, F2837+, F2839+, F2973+, F2985+, F2993+, F3074+, F3111+, F3119+, F3136+, F3335+, F3343+, F3347+, F3358+, F3368+, F3384+, F3402+, F3556+, F3692+, F4072+, F4074+, F4095+, F4100+, F4106+, F4188+, F4259+, F4266+, F4272+, F4283+, F4334+, F719+, F841+, F922+, L132+, L134+, L15+, L16+, L212+, L228+, L26+, L27+, L350+, L403+, L468+, L470+, L498+, L505+, L559+, L748+, L778+, M139+, M168+, M172+, M235+, M294+, M304+, M339+, M42+, M89+, M94+, P123+, P124+, P126+, P127+, P130+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P209+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF3515+, PF3517+, PF3518+, PF3534+, PF3560+, PF3561+, PF3562+, PF4490+, PF4491+, PF4500+, PF4513+, PF4521+, PF4527+, PF4530+, PF4572+, PF4591+, PF4595+, PF4597+, PF4598+, PF4610+, PF4622+, PF4886+, PF4891+, PF4901+, PF4925+, PF4935+, PF4942+, PF4952+, PF4955+, PF4959+, PF4982+, PF4984+, PF4985+, PF4992+, PF500+, PF5084+, PF5091+, PF5104+, PF5105+, PF5106+, PF5116+, PF5119+, PF5123+, PF5125+, PF5127+, PF5138+, PF667+, PF719+, PF725+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000056+, YSC0000064+, YSC0000066+, YSC0000165+, YSC0000197+, YSC0000228+, YSC0000236+, YSC0000239+, YSC0000265+, Z1849+
    Particularly interested in: DNA/Admixture from Historical Tyrol, Central Alps and related/connected populations; Y-DNA J2a-M67-L210, J2a-PF5197-PF5169, R1a-M17, R1b-U106-Z372; mtDNA J1b1b, J1c1d2-A11884G, U5a2b2-G10685A, U5b1b1-b-T16192C! Projects: Hidden Content , Hidden Content , J2a-PF5197, ISOGG Wiki, GenWiki (german)

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