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Thread: R-M269 (R1b) in South Asia

  1. #1
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    R-M269 (R1b) in South Asia

    I have noticed, on the FTDNA South Asia and Pak-Afghan projects, there are very few to none R1b's among most South Asian populations. I have seen one from Kerala, another one from Maharashtra and then some from NW Pakistan(KPK). And most of them are Tanolis. We see the founder effect there, among them.
    My question is how did R-M269 arrive in South Asia? The Tanolis, among whom it is most prevalent, have a folk tradition of being descendants of a Turkic Tribe, the Baralas, and they have some elaborate genealogies to support that claim as well, however they also have some traditions that go back to figures before any Turkic-Mongol migration into the Hazara, the legend of King Bir Deva, for instance. Could one of their ancestor have arrived in South Asia as part of a Scythian or Hunnic wave, from Central Asia, before the expansion of the Turkics(Gokturks)? I think so for R-M269 is quite prevalent among a Turkic group, the Bashkirs, who are now settled in Uralic Russia, and they are, by one theory, believed to have descended from an Iranic Scythian tribe, and were later absorbed into the Turkic federation, while in Central Asia, While Scythians, some of them might have landed in South Asian Gandhara, and eventually settled in the Hazara. Plausible?
    Last edited by Rahuls77; 01-21-2021 at 07:36 PM.

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    One of the older posters, Rockman, had an R1b. His is presumably of Turkic origins.
    Last edited by subzero85; 01-21-2021 at 06:40 PM.

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    Aaronbee's uncle is R1b.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Aaronbee's uncle is R1b.
    It definitely very old, in the subcontinent. I believe one of the older Swat valley samples is R1b. Do you think if there is a source that has haplogroup info for all the ancient DNA, the samples we have G25 coordinates for?

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    I have one R1b Telugu guy on my 23andme matches
    Y: H-M69 -> H-M82 -> SK1225 -> H-Z5888 -> H-Z5890 -> H-CTS8144 [CTS8144/PF1741/M5498] -> Z34531 (H1a1a4b3b1a8~)
    found 2875 BCE -> Jiroft/IVC Periphery 11459 Shahr-i-Sokte BA2
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    G25 Ancients Dist 1.0 IRN_Shahr_I_Sokhta_BA2 88.4 MAR_Taforalt 2.6NPL_Mebrak 5
    VK2020_SWE_Gotland_VA 4 Hidden Content

    Lactose Persistence rs3213871 rs4988243 rs4988183 rs3769005 rs2236783
    found -> DA125, Kangju

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    It definitely very old, in the subcontinent. I believe one of the older Swat valley samples is R1b. Do you think if there is a source that has haplogroup info for all the ancient DNA, the samples we have G25 coordinates for?
    Aaronbee can answer that the best. If I'm correct, he went through Haplos of a lot of ancients on G25. Let's just wait for him to notice this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    It definitely very old, in the subcontinent. I believe one of the older Swat valley samples is R1b. Do you think if there is a source that has haplogroup info for all the ancient DNA, the samples we have G25 coordinates for?
    The Turko-Mongol R1b is going to be M73. The steppe types would be L51 (Afanasevo) and Z2103 (Yamna).
    But some of the oldest splits are in South Asia.
    Cf. Joshi (N93357 Bhaskar Dinkar Joshi) and

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    Quote Originally Posted by MonkeyDLuffy View Post
    Aaronbee's uncle is R1b.
    R1b-M269 was likely picked up via minor interactions with Catacomb by some Abashevo Indo Iranian types for it to land up in a Punjabi Jat. Also explains I2a in those 2 SGPT samples.
    Last edited by pegasus; 01-22-2021 at 04:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rahuls77 View Post
    I have noticed, on the FTDNA South Asia and Pak-Afghan projects, there are very few to none R1b's among most South Asian populations. I have seen one from Kerala, another one from Maharashtra and then some from NW Pakistan(KPK). And most of them are Tanolis. We see the founder effect there, among them.
    My question is how did R-M269 arrive in South Asia? The Tanolis, among whom it is most prevalent, have a folk tradition of being descendants of a Turkic Tribe, the Baralas, and they have some elaborate genealogies to support that claim as well, however they also have some traditions that go back to figures before any Turkic-Mongol migration into the Hazara, the legend of King Bir Deva, for instance. Could one of their ancestor have arrived in South Asia as part of a Scythian or Hunnic wave, from Central Asia, before the expansion of the Turkics(Gokturks)? I think so for R-M269 is quite prevalent among a Turkic group, the Bashkirs, who are now settled in Uralic Russia, and they are, by one theory, believed to have descended from an Iranic Scythian tribe, and were later absorbed into the Turkic federation, while in Central Asia, While Scythians, some of them might have landed in South Asian Gandhara, and eventually settled in the Hazara. Plausible?
    FTDNA Tested R-M269: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ion=ycolorized
    69058 Saad-Ullah Khan - Awan R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-18
    69060 Sultan Mohammed Khan Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
    69057 Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
    216616 Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28
    69056 Tanoli L-M20 12 22 16 10 9-16 1112 1313 14 29 19 9-9 1113 26 1619 29 15-15-15-16
    69061 Manghi Khan-Awan L-M20 12 23 16 10 9-15 11 12 14 13 14 29 17 9-9 11 13 27 15 19 28 15-16-16-16

    There is this one 'non-peer-reviewed' thesis work, "Genetic Analysis of the Major Tribes of Buner and Swabi Areas through Dental Morphology and DNA Analysis" by Muhammad Tariq, showing higher R1b haplogroups in Tanolis. But even in this sample population of Tanolis, second highest Haplogroup is R-M17.
    "Genetic variations in the non-recombining segment of the Y-chromosome
    (NRY) were characterized using 32 binary markers and 19 short tandem
    repeats (STRs). These markers yielded 11 haplogroups across the five
    population samples. The majority of the Y-chromosomes were found to
    belong to haplogroups R1a1a (50%), R1b1a (17.4%) and O3 (13.86%). Highest
    frequencies of haplogroup R1a1a-M17 were found among the Syed samples
    (89.15%), while lowest frequencies occurred among the Jadoons (5.26%).
    Western Eurasian haplogroup R1b1a-M297 was only found among the Tanoli
    males included in the study, while Jadoon Y-chromosomes were
    predominantly of haplogroup O3 (76.32%)." Interestingly, they also conclude, "While members of these ethnic groups tended to show relatively close affinities to other self-identifying
    members of that ethnic group, regardless of sampling locality,this was not
    true for Tanolis, for the sample from Mansehra District exhibits no affinities to
    the sample of Tanolis from Swabi District (TANsb).
    "

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  17. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kapisa View Post
    FTDNA Tested R-M269: https://www.familytreedna.com/public...ion=ycolorized
    69058 Saad-Ullah Khan - Awan R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-16-18
    69060 Sultan Mohammed Khan Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 14 28 18 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
    69057 Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 13 13 14 28 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 14-15-16-18
    216616 Tanoli R1b1a2
    12 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 28
    69056 Tanoli L-M20 12 22 16 10 9-16 1112 1313 14 29 19 9-9 1113 26 1619 29 15-15-15-16
    69061 Manghi Khan-Awan L-M20 12 23 16 10 9-15 11 12 14 13 14 29 17 9-9 11 13 27 15 19 28 15-16-16-16

    There is this one 'non-peer-reviewed' thesis work, "Genetic Analysis of the Major Tribes of Buner and Swabi Areas through Dental Morphology and DNA Analysis" by Muhammad Tariq, showing higher R1b haplogroups in Tanolis. But even in this sample population of Tanolis, second highest Haplogroup is R-M17.
    "Genetic variations in the non-recombining segment of the Y-chromosome
    (NRY) were characterized using 32 binary markers and 19 short tandem
    repeats (STRs). These markers yielded 11 haplogroups across the five
    population samples. The majority of the Y-chromosomes were found to
    belong to haplogroups R1a1a (50%), R1b1a (17.4%) and O3 (13.86%). Highest
    frequencies of haplogroup R1a1a-M17 were found among the Syed samples
    (89.15%), while lowest frequencies occurred among the Jadoons (5.26%).
    Western Eurasian haplogroup R1b1a-M297 was only found among the Tanoli
    males included in the study, while Jadoon Y-chromosomes were
    predominantly of haplogroup O3 (76.32%)." Interestingly, they also conclude, "While members of these ethnic groups tended to show relatively close affinities to other self-identifying
    members of that ethnic group, regardless of sampling locality,this was not
    true for Tanolis, for the sample from Mansehra District exhibits no affinities to
    the sample of Tanolis from Swabi District (TANsb).
    "
    The line of the Tanoli Nawab of Amb is R-M269. I guess as Hazarawals they can be considered as the same lot as those from Mansehra.

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