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Thread: The Oldest DF41 Thus Far?

  1. #1
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    Cool The Oldest DF41 Thus Far?

    The .anno file at the recently posted Allen Ancient DNA Resource (AADR): Downloadable genotypes of present-day and ancient DNA data site, from David Reich, features an update to the Y-DNA haplogroup of sample I5441 from Olalde et al's "The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe".

    In the original paper, the authors would only go as far as P312 for I5441. Now they have him listed as R1b-DF41 (R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1d).

    I5441_screenshot_DF41_Reich Ancient DNA anno file.jpg

    I'm accepting that as correct until someone comes along and shoots it down.

    I5441 came from the Neale's Cave site in Paington, Devon, England, and is dated to 2000-1600 BC, so Early Bronze Age.

    The skeleton was not complete and consisted of fragments of human cranium. The authors of the paper were able to obtain the genome from "a sample of a petrous process of a temporal bone" (Olalde et al Supplementary Info, p. 123).

    A DF41 from Early Bronze Age Devon sounds reasonable to me and not totally outrageous or unbelievable.

    What do you all think?

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  3. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The .anno file at the recently posted Allen Ancient DNA Resource (AADR): Downloadable genotypes of present-day and ancient DNA data site, from David Reich, features an update to the Y-DNA haplogroup of sample I5441 from Olalde et al's "The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe".

    In the original paper, the authors would only go as far as P312 for I5441. Now they have him listed as R1b-DF41 (R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1d).

    I5441_screenshot_DF41_Reich Ancient DNA anno file.jpg

    I'm accepting that as correct until someone comes along and shoots it down.

    I5441 came from the Neale's Cave site in Paington, Devon, England, and is dated to 2000-1600 BC, so Early Bronze Age.

    The skeleton was not complete and consisted of fragments of human cranium. The authors of the paper were able to obtain the genome from "a sample of a petrous process of a temporal bone" (Olalde et al Supplementary Info, p. 123).

    A DF41 from Early Bronze Age Devon sounds reasonable to me and not totally outrageous or unbelievable.

    What do you all think?
    I would love this to be true , the romantic in me would love df41 to be a devon one as our eka is devon
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    Y DNA Adams , Ipplepen , Devon , England c1700
    MtDNA - Jordan , Woodham Mortimer, Essex, England , c1800
    Misc bloodlines - Cambridgeshire, Somerset, Kent, Hampshire, Staffs, Devon, Cornwall

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The .anno file at the recently posted Allen Ancient DNA Resource (AADR): Downloadable genotypes of present-day and ancient DNA data site, from David Reich, features an update to the Y-DNA haplogroup of sample I5441 from Olalde et al's "The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe".

    In the original paper, the authors would only go as far as P312 for I5441. Now they have him listed as R1b-DF41 (R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1d).

    I5441_screenshot_DF41_Reich Ancient DNA anno file.jpg

    I'm accepting that as correct until someone comes along and shoots it down.

    I5441 came from the Neale's Cave site in Paington, Devon, England, and is dated to 2000-1600 BC, so Early Bronze Age.

    The skeleton was not complete and consisted of fragments of human cranium. The authors of the paper were able to obtain the genome from "a sample of a petrous process of a temporal bone" (Olalde et al Supplementary Info, p. 123).

    A DF41 from Early Bronze Age Devon sounds reasonable to me and not totally outrageous or unbelievable.

    What do you all think?
    This was the sample that Kolegh called as being DF27>DF83, if you recall a bit back when discussing the DF83 Gist group. I was a little dubious about this call as it would have been the first and only aDna sample of DF27 in the British Isles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    This was the sample that Kolegh called as being DF27>DF83, if you recall a bit back when discussing the DF83 Gist group. I was a little dubious about this call as it would have been the first and only aDna sample of DF27 in the British Isles.
    Yeah, and Generalissimo expressed some doubts about it, too, over in the ancient DNA subforum.

    However, based on the answer I got from Dr. Lazaridis on RISE550, it looks like the current calls at the Reich ancient DNA data site are based on the latest data and are not sloppy or simply typos and other errors.

    I would write and ask about this one, as well, but I don't want to be a pest or push my luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    Yeah, and Generalissimo expressed some doubts about it, too, over in the ancient DNA subforum.

    However, based on the answer I got from Dr. Lazaridis on RISE550, it looks like the current calls at the Reich ancient DNA data site are based on the latest data and are not sloppy or simply typos and other errors.

    I would write and ask about this one, as well, but I don't want to be a pest or push my luck.
    Par for the course, when it comes to DF27.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Webb View Post
    Par for the course, when it comes to DF27.
    I think also some of these ancient samples are just too screwed up to be real sure of their Y-DNA haplogroups, with a lot of resolution, anyway.

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    BTW, I'm not counting I5441 as our first confirmed ancient R1b-DF41.

    Too shaky.

    I'll wait for a sure thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rms2 View Post
    The .anno file at the recently posted Allen Ancient DNA Resource (AADR): Downloadable genotypes of present-day and ancient DNA data site, from David Reich, features an update to the Y-DNA haplogroup of sample I5441 from Olalde et al's "The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe".

    In the original paper, the authors would only go as far as P312 for I5441. Now they have him listed as R1b-DF41 (R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1d).

    I5441_screenshot_DF41_Reich Ancient DNA anno file.jpg

    I'm accepting that as correct until someone comes along and shoots it down.

    I5441 came from the Neale's Cave site in Paington, Devon, England, and is dated to 2000-1600 BC, so Early Bronze Age.

    The skeleton was not complete and consisted of fragments of human cranium. The authors of the paper were able to obtain the genome from "a sample of a petrous process of a temporal bone" (Olalde et al Supplementary Info, p. 123).

    A DF41 from Early Bronze Age Devon sounds reasonable to me and not totally outrageous or unbelievable.

    What do you all think?
    Looks like there's a few more in there.

    Master ID:

    I6534
    RISE524
    I5441
    NA10851
    Last edited by Owain; 02-04-2021 at 06:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Owain View Post
    Looks like there's a few more in there.

    Master ID:

    I6534
    RISE524
    I5441
    NA10851
    Hmmm . . . I couldn't find any of those on the Reich anno file spreadsheet.

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    I think Owain means there are other ancients from Russia etc in that anno file with same listed haplogroup as I544 (R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1d).

    DF41_Ancient_Capture..JPG

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