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Thread: Carthaginians = Punicized North africans ?

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    Carthaginians = Punicized North africans ?

    Based on all the Datas we have so far it seems to be the case :

    Genetics

    The very low MMD between the Canary Islanders and Carthaginians, who originated in West Asia, suggests a particularly close affinity, despite the geographic distance between these two populations. This result, again, may reflect
    Berber/Carthaginian admixture.
    https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...18442X04700153

    Here by "Canary Islanders", they of course meant guanches not the current canarian population.


    All six individuals from the Punic Villamar site were inferred to have substantial levels of ancient North-African ancestry (point estimates ranging 20–35%, Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE and PCA results, Figs. 2 and 4). When fit with the same five-way admixture model, present-day Sardinians have a small but detectable level of North-African ancestry (Supp. Fig. 14, also see ADMIXTURE analysis, Fig. 4).
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6#Sec2


    Beyond our focal interest in Sardinia, the results from individuals from the Phoenician-Punic sites Monte Sirai and Villamar shed some light on the ancestry of a historically impactful Mediterranean population. Notably, they show strong genetic relationships to ancient North-African and eastern Mediterranean sources. These results mirror other emerging ancient DNA studies37,58, and are not unexpected given that the Punic center of Carthage on the North-African coast itself has roots in the eastern Mediterranean. Interestingly, the Monte Sirai individuals, predating the Villamar individuals by several centuries, show less North-African ancestry. This could be because they harbor earlier Phoenician ancestry and North-African admixture may have been unique to the later Punic context, or because they were individuals from a different ancestral background altogether. Estimated North-African admixture fractions were much lower in later ancient individuals and present-day Sardinian individuals, in line with previous studies that have observed small but significant African admixture in several present-day South European populations, including Sardinia
    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-14523-6#Sec9


    Phoenician colonies were established in the Balearic Islands during the Iron Age. The Ibiza individual published previously59 from a collective burial in a Punic hypogeum and dated to 361–178 cal. bc is not consistent with forming a clade with any of the Bronze Age Balearic individuals and has a qualitatively different ancestry profile; for example, a North African source of ancestry is required to obtain a fit (our model is 10.8±2.7% Iran_Ganj_Dareh_Neolithic and 89.2±2.7% Morocco_LN ancestry; Fig. 4, Supplementary Table 14). In proximal modelling, Ibiza_Phoenician also always requires Morocco_LN as one of the sources. Although some of these models include a Balearic Island Bronze Age source, it is possible that the Ibiza Phoenician individual has no ancestry at all from earlier Balearic peoples, as we fit her with models that have all of the Balearic Bronze Age individuals among the outgroups (for example, 17.0±3.1% France_Bell_Beaker and 83.0±3.1% Morocco_LN; Supplementary Table 19).
    https://reich.hms.harvard.edu/sites/...erranean_0.pdf


    In the southeast, we recovered genomic data from 45 individuals dated between the 3rd and 16th centuries CE. All analyzed individuals fell outside the genetic variation of preceding Iberian Iron Age populations (Fig. 1, C and D, and fig. S3) and harbored ancestry from both Southern European and North African populations (Fig. 2D), as well as additional Levantine-related ancestry that could potentially reflect ancestry from Jewish groups (21). These results demonstrate that by the Roman period, southern Iberia had experienced a major influx of North African ancestry, probably related to the well-known mobility patterns during the Roman Empire (22) or to the earlier Phoenician-Punic presence (23); the latter is also supported by the observation of the Phoenician-associated Y-chromosome J2 (24). Gene flow from North Africa continued into the Muslim period, as is clear from Muslim burials with elevated North African and sub-Saharan African ancestry (Fig. 2D, fig. S4, and table S22) and from uniparental markers typical of North Africa not present among pre-Islamic individuals (Fig. 2D and fig. S11). Present-day populations from southern Iberia harbor less North African ancestry (25) than the ancient Muslim burials, plausibly reflecting expulsion of moriscos (former Muslims converted to Christianity) and repopulation from the north, as supported by historical sources and genetic analysis of present-day groups (25). The impact of Muslim rule is also evident in northeast Iberia in seven individuals from Sant Julià de Ramis from the 8th to 12th centuries CE who, unlike previous ancient individuals from the same region, show North African–related ancestry (Fig. 2C and table S19) and a complete overlap in PCA with present-day Iberians (Fig. 1D).
    https://science.sciencemag.org/content/363/6432/1230

    That's exactly where punics settled massively in Iberia, with their capital city being Cartagena in southeast Spain.



    History


    This penetration of the Carthaginians into the midst of the African populations was to result in a sort of fusion which resulted in a large ethnic and cultural community. Thus, to take an example, in the time of Saint Augustine, a sort of Libyco-Punic dialect was still spoken in certain rural areas. The civilization of Carthage had been able to impose itself little by little, but in their turn, certain indigenous customs and traditional beliefs left their mark on those of these Phoenicians who became Libyphoenicians. (This name was first given to the Phoenicians settled in the colonies of the African littoral; only later, it is found applied to the Libyans who adopted Punic customs and it also seems to have taken on a legal and administrative value to designate the citizens of the towns. Punic who enjoyed the same civil rights as the Carthaginians of the capital.) Through this "Africanization", which further enriches it, the Punic civilization truly belongs to the North African cultural heritage. "There is no doubt, writes Jérôme Carcopino, that these colonies have, in the long run, formed so many centers of a mixed civilization which, step by step, has spread from the coast to the continent and made it prevail over all of North Africa, and for millennia, the spirit of Carthage
    Carthage ou empire de la mer, François Decret, p114

    S.Gsell, Tome 1 :
    It was necessary for the Phoenicians to maintain good relations with the natives, who fueled their trade and could provide them with a robust and inexpensive workforce. They welcomed a certain number of them into their walls (4).
    ---> Silius Italicus, l. c., Salluste, Jugurtha, LXXVIII, 4 : (Leptis Magna).
    It is believed that from the start more than one settler took a wife among the natives, simply because the immigrants were to be predominantly men.
    The close relations maintained between the Punic and Numidian spheres are finally illustrated by the numerous testimonies of miscegenation: matrimonial relations between the Punic and Numidian aristocracies were frequent, as were mixed marriages between peoples - genealogies indicated on neopunic inscriptions present names of Libyan and Punic origin which mix. As we can see, the links between Carthage and its hinterland were important. How can we still doubt this when we consider the power reached by the African metropolis in the western Mediterranean? been able to maintain its hegemony there and face the great powers of the time without being able to dispose of the human and economic resources of North-East Africa, as well as a large territorial base? It is a fact that most of the Punic troops was composed of African elements, whether Libyan or Numidian, or that African populations colonized terri roofs directly controlled by Carthage in the Mediterranean islands or in Iberia.
    Carthage, histoire d'une métropole méditerranéenne, Khaled Melliti, 2016, p74-75

    In fact, the heart of the Carthaginian military power will always be constituted by the Libyans populating the interior of the Carthaginian state and, recently, by the Iberians of the territory administered by the Barcids in Spain, as well as by the supplements provided by the Phoenician cities of Africa, such as Utica or Hadrumète.These units, which form the bulk of the infantry, constitute the most stable and reliable strength of the Punic army. In fact, they helped to stabilize the strength Punic faced with the versatility of the mercenaries, even of the auxiliaries - Gallic in particular -, or with the inexperience of the new recruits. They played a role of supervision and maintenance of the discipline essential for a force as variegated as the army of Hannibal: A veritable relay for the strategist on the ground, this corps, the backbone of the infantry, will play a tactical role of the first importance throughout Hannibal's campaign.
    Carthage, Histoire d'une métropole méditerranéenne, p310, Khaled Melliti

    This period of colonial expansion had a marked influence on the race. One could not organize all these new foundations with only the Phoenician elements. These provided only the frameworks of these colonies, the mass was borrowed from the local Libyan ruled population. by Libyphoenician half-breeds. The ancient authors have left us with undoubted information about this form of colonization. Diodorus thus says, that Theuna in Sicily was founded by Carthage, who sent there some of the citizens of the city and those of the Libyans who wanted to take advantage of the occasion (XIII LXIX.8). Cicero, in his speech Pro Scauro (XIX, 42) mentions the same processes of emigration.
    https://www.persee.fr/doc/linly_1160...num_11_1_16377

    The people are not well known. In the cities, probably made up mostly of punicized Libyans, they represent a middle class of craftsmen and shopkeepers, but also sailors and fishermen.
    Africa quasi roma, Jean-Marie Lassère, p.40

    From the meeting of these two entities, Eastern and African, was born the Punic fact. It is not the simple transplantation on African land of what was in Sidon and Tire. If the Punic tradition was so alive among the ancient Africans is precisely because it was not foreign to them but constituted in the midst of them, within cities where essentially Semitic onomastics cannot hide the African ethnic contribution.
    https://journals.openedition.org/enc...ieberbere/2293

    Thus, of the 20,000 infantrymen who arrived in the Po Plain in late 218, 12,000 were Libyans (Afri)
    Carthage ou empire de la mer, François Decret, p83

    the bronze table of Cape Lacinion also tells us about the numbers left at the disposal of Asdrubal Barca, appointed by his older brother to command Punic Spain: a fleet of 50 quinqueremes, 2 quadriremes and 5 triremes; a cavalry of 2550 elements composed, in majority, of Numidians, Moors, but also Libyphoenicians, and an infantry including 11,850 Africans, 300 Ligurians and 500 Balearics.
    Carthage, Histoire d'une métropole méditerranéenne, p310, Khaled Melliti


    Anthropology


    As for the demonstrative form, that is to say, physical anthropology, cultural features are, for Bertholon, only confirmations of what anthropometry and craniology establish (1904, 1908). Essay on the religion of the Libyans "is quite revealing of his conception of things: he affirms there that the gods of the Carthaginians were Libyan gods, a discovery confirming a fact (so to speak) established by the study of more than five hundred skulls showing that the "Punic type" was exceptional in the Carthaginian population, and that the Phoenicians of Carthage were, in fact, Libyans.
    https://www.persee.fr/doc/cea_0008-0...um_33_129_2076

    Overall punics show great affinities with algerians, Tarragone skulls from the roman era, guanches and to a lesser extent Abydos (XVIIIth dynasty),Etruscans, Bronze age syrians (Euphrate), skulls from the dolmen of Lozere.

    All in all, the anthropological position of the Algerian and Punic Protohistoric people when it comes to the populations of the Mediterranean Basin agrees quite well with their geographical situation. Located halfway between the countries of the western Mediterranean and northeastern Africa, they offer affinities with the ancient inhabitants of northern Spain and Egypt. On the other hand, to the extent that among the ancient inhabitants of eastern Syria the Mediterranean type predominated, it is not surprising to note similarities between the latter and the protohistoric Algerians where this morphological type predominated. But we must not forget either that the Algerians of the protohistoric era were descendants of the Protomediterranean Capsians and Neolithic. The men who brought the Capsian culture to North Africa probably have a Near Eastern origin. Large dolicho- and mesocephalic type individuals from protohistoric burials may well be their descendants, while more slender individuals resemble the slender Western protomediterranean type that is already found in the Neolithic period in Algeria and Tunisia.
    https://journals.openedition.org/enc...ieberbere/2896


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    I don't see why this wouldn't be the case, considering this is exactly what we also see today. North Africans are Arabs by language (and culture) only, genetically almost fully native North African.
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    The Punics were probably mainly J1 and the Natufian variant of E-M35 who mixed with North Africans E-M81. So it was a Levantine/North-African combo mix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The Punics were probably mainly J1 and the Natufian variant of E-M35 who mixed with North Africans E-M81. So it was a Levantine/North-African combo mix.
    Logically north africans outnumbered these first phoenician settlers therefore after some centuries, carthaginians probably were fully north africans but still punicized

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    It's in a way similar to nowadays indeed, with only a minority of Maghrebis having detectable or significant Arabian ancestry.
    It was always clear from the "Libyan" cultural influence and the evolution of the local Phoenician language into something that was produced by mouths that previously or simultaneously spoke Berber-related languages so to speak.

    That being said, while Punics were predominantly of Berber stock in North Africa, they could have been of any local origin wherever they were located: so if we take Punics as a whole, they were anything from Levantine, Berber, Iberian, Sardinian, Sicilian etc and any mix between them.
    That's what we see from the Sardinian ancient samples, where a three-way mix is common (Levantine + Berber + Southern European).
    Paternal Y-DNA haplogroup: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183
    Maternal [grandfather] Y-DNA: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183>PF2477>PF2546
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignis90 View Post
    It's in a way similar to nowadays indeed, with only a minority of Maghrebis having detectable or significant Arabian ancestry.
    It was always clear from the "Libyan" cultural influence and the evolution of the local Phoenician language into something that was produced by mouths that previously or simultaneously spoke Berber-related languages so to speak.

    That being said, while Punics were predominantly of Berber stock in North Africa, they could have been of any local origin wherever they were located: so if we take Punics as a whole, they were anything from Levantine, Berber, Iberian, Sardinian, Sicilian etc and any mix between them.
    That's what we see from the Sardinian ancient samples, where a three-way mix is common (Levantine + Berber + Southern European).
    Well not exactly, what we see in Sardinia is a majority of local sardinians with people from monte sirai showing decent amount of levantine ancestry (which makes sense because directly settled by phoenicians) while the samples from villamar instead show north african ancestry (which again makes sense because directly settled by punics from Carthage) with some of them being mixed with the locals (we do have testimonies of this too).

    Moreover I was talking about carthaginians specifically and most punic settlers came from it and its countryside.

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    North african in ogliastra and nuro is non-existant. North african/phoenician is only present in some area of Southern Sardinia.

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    There is certainly a shift from Levantine to Berber through time. That begs the question of the nature of the transition: was it gradual or clear-cut with new "Cartaginian" settlements being fundamentally different in many ways.

    Anyway, I have always thought North African punics had to be predominantly if not exclusively of indigenous stock.
    But I wouldn't be surprised to see West Mediterranean influences popping up here and there.
    Paternal Y-DNA haplogroup: E-M35>E-Z827>L19>M81>M183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cabaon View Post
    Well not exactly, what we see in Sardinia is a majority of local sardinians with people from monte sirai showing decent amount of levantine ancestry (which makes sense because directly settled by phoenicians) while the samples from villamar instead show north african ancestry (which again makes sense because directly settled by punics from Carthage) with some of them being mixed with the locals (we do have testimonies of this too).

    Moreover I was talking about carthaginians specifically and most punic settlers came from it and its countryside.
    the Monte-Sirai samples ~680BCE/BC (calBP) coincide with the earliest Phoenician presence on Sardinia and the destruction of nuraghe-Antigori and its chiefdom along with the aband. of other Class III type settlements in SW-Sardinia; a source of the early Phoenician presence is the socalled Nora-stone, most likely a military document, with a new 2012 translation that corresponds with the overall ar. context (Nora and Sulkis est. ~8th c.) of SW-Sardinia; acc. to this new translation the Nora-stone feat. a Cypriot deity PUMMAY with Cyprus being part of the Phoenician realm since the 10th c. and prob. playing an important role in Phoenician expansion p3/47 these samples could be from an Aegean rather than Levantine provenance (PCA Fig2) and both can indeed be modeled with a heavy 60-80 Myc-BA in S.Table7

    and while it makes sense that Villamar is more later Carthaginian and Monte-Sirai early Phoenician both sites actually date similar, meaning both were on the island at the same time, with the oldest and most chron. overlapping VIL011/010/006 the ones also with the most North African 50-80 source pop.

    all the Villamar samples of the paper are however from a single tomb the hypogeum T16 not from any others

    Geno2.0 51SEURO 19WCEURO 13SCANDINAVIA 5ASIAMINOR 4EEURO 4GB/IRELAND 3ARABIA myOrigins 26ITA.PENINSULA 13GREECE&BALKANS 12SARDINIA 18GREATBRITAIN 14IRELAND 10CEN.EUROPE 8SCANDINAVIA DNA.Land 49NWEURO 27SEURO 13MED.ISLANDER 11SARDINIAN myHeritage 51.8NWEURO 33.2ITALIAN 7.9GREEK/S.ITALY 7.1BALKAN gencove 29NITALY 19EMED 15NBRITISLES 12SWEURO 10NCEURO 9SCANDINAVIA 6NEEURO GenePlaza 54.4NWEURO 37.6GREEK/ALBANIAN 5.6WASIAN 2.4SWASIA LivingDNA 70.7SGERMANIC 16.3TUSCANY 9.2N.ITALY 3.8SARDINIA

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  17. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
    The Punics were probably mainly J1 and the Natufian variant of E-M35 who mixed with North Africans E-M81. So it was a Levantine/North-African combo mix.
    That's an interesting theory but only the TMRCA of E-CTS4236 (2700BP) matches the Phoenician expansion to the West Med area. The TMRCA of J-ZS4753 (1450BP) and J-FGC43126 (1150BP) are both linked to the Arab conquest of North Africa, an event that happened long after the arrival of the Phoenicians. Furthermore, Ancient North Africans (Taforalt) were all E-M78 rather than E-M81, the most basal subclade of E-M81 is only found in the Levant (Negev) and the upstream subclade of E-L19 is likewise only found in the Levant (Adana).
    Last edited by RagingBull; 01-28-2021 at 12:39 PM.

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